CycleWriter: al74:Why did you spend so much money on an HTPC and didn't wait for Fiji first is another question. It shouldn't be incumbent on a consumer to have to prowl internet message boards and forums to find out everything they need to know about what MS or any manufacturer might be doing in the future before making a purchase. I never heard of Fiji until I started hanging out in here and that didn;t happen until AFTER I bought my HPTC last month and was disappointed that VMC was almost as crippled as the MCE 2005 I thought I was upgrading from. I also knew nothing about MC plug-ins and hacks that give more functionality. If VMC is a product geared towards DIY enthusiasts and hackers then the retailers are completely misrepresenting the product as is MSFT. I just watched some of the videos in the VMC help section and the overwhelming message they convey is the ease of use and benefits of making your home a VMC home. It's an outright crock of *** the way MC is being marketed to unsuspecting consumers.
al74:Why did you spend so much money on an HTPC and didn't wait for Fiji first is another question.
It shouldn't be incumbent on a consumer to have to prowl internet message boards and forums to find out everything they need to know about what MS or any manufacturer might be doing in the future before making a purchase. I never heard of Fiji until I started hanging out in here and that didn;t happen until AFTER I bought my HPTC last month and was disappointed that VMC was almost as crippled as the MCE 2005 I thought I was upgrading from. I also knew nothing about MC plug-ins and hacks that give more functionality. If VMC is a product geared towards DIY enthusiasts and hackers then the retailers are completely misrepresenting the product as is MSFT. I just watched some of the videos in the VMC help section and the overwhelming message they convey is the ease of use and benefits of making your home a VMC home. It's an outright crock of *** the way MC is being marketed to unsuspecting consumers.
So are you happy or not with the product? It sound like you don't. As I mentioned before, if I were you I would assume that no update will come your way. After the crap they put us through, I would not assume that they care. Return you machine and get a new one with the supported update. The problem is. Buying from Dell or HP, you will have to wait very long time to be sure they actually incorporated the update into the machine you are buying. Will you trust a sales rep telling you it's there?
dannyh: What I find surprising is that the eHome team is supposed to be a team talented developers paid to work on a particular product (Media Center) and improve the product. You would think that since they are working full-time on improving the eHome experience, and with the backing of a company as large as Microsoft, that the product would be leading the market and paving the way in terms of features. Yet this is not at all the case, and surprisingly eHome is far behind all their competitors, even though these competitors are working compeltely free (or else on donations) during their free time (as a hobby, since developing the software is not their job), and have less powerful tools and resources at their disposal.
What I find surprising is that the eHome team is supposed to be a team talented developers paid to work on a particular product (Media Center) and improve the product. You would think that since they are working full-time on improving the eHome experience, and with the backing of a company as large as Microsoft, that the product would be leading the market and paving the way in terms of features.
Yet this is not at all the case, and surprisingly eHome is far behind all their competitors, even though these competitors are working compeltely free (or else on donations) during their free time (as a hobby, since developing the software is not their job), and have less powerful tools and resources at their disposal.
Sure, you can argue that the OEM-only nature of this release negates that for those that don't want to buy a new PC. I get that, I really do. However, don't put down the work of the eHome team just because this was a targeted release that only officially supports specific OEM hardware configurations. Also realize that all of these improvements roll forward into the next release, and by that time we will be able to support many more hardware configurations outside of this targeted OEM release.
dannyh: I understand MS is very US-centric, but if they wish to keep users outside of the US (especially in Europe), they will quickly need to implement long-awaited support for features required to watch broadcasts in these countries. I'm not even talking about features enhancements, but just basic requirements to be able to watch broadcasts in these countries. If MS does not act quickly, I feel they may loose all the goodwill from existing customers.
I understand MS is very US-centric, but if they wish to keep users outside of the US (especially in Europe), they will quickly need to implement long-awaited support for features required to watch broadcasts in these countries. I'm not even talking about features enhancements, but just basic requirements to be able to watch broadcasts in these countries. If MS does not act quickly, I feel they may loose all the goodwill from existing customers.
The TV Pack has a heavy non-US focus, so I'm not sure I follow your logic here. The inclusion of DVB-T, DVB-S, and ISDB (along with in-band EPG support) are not features that benefit US customers. In fact, with the exception of QAM and inmproved ATSC... there isn't much in the TV Pack for non-US customers. This was largely an international-focused release.
mark1234: habnix: No, you have not "claimed specific features would definitely be part of a particular release" but for over 2 years Microsoft has created certain expectations. One of them being that Europeans would finally be able to watch digital satellite television. (DVB-S) I don't hang around on continential European forums so can't see what's been said there, but the only thing I heard from Microsoft about DVB-S support was in a podcast from Ian Dixon early last year with someone from Microsoft Ireland. In that he specifically said that subscription services weren't being supported. I know it won't make you any happier, but FreeSat in the UK is FTA DVB-S and seems to work fine from all the comments I've read. BBC HD excluded for obvious reasons.
habnix: No, you have not "claimed specific features would definitely be part of a particular release" but for over 2 years Microsoft has created certain expectations. One of them being that Europeans would finally be able to watch digital satellite television. (DVB-S)
No, you have not "claimed specific features would definitely be part of a particular release" but for over 2 years Microsoft has created certain expectations. One of them being that Europeans would finally be able to watch digital satellite television. (DVB-S)
I don't hang around on continential European forums so can't see what's been said there, but the only thing I heard from Microsoft about DVB-S support was in a podcast from Ian Dixon early last year with someone from Microsoft Ireland. In that he specifically said that subscription services weren't being supported.
I know it won't make you any happier, but FreeSat in the UK is FTA DVB-S and seems to work fine from all the comments I've read. BBC HD excluded for obvious reasons.
lozenp:I agree. I just dropped 600 on a new pc. I'd just like a little friendly advice from the MS team: should I take it back (only have 6 days left to do so) and wait a couple weeks or stick it out for an update from HP? Their support had no idea about it as of today. I love the VMC product. The tvtonic olympics stuff is great. The extender support is great. I want to Use this as my only solution. My OTA HD is spotty at best so QAM is HUGE for me so this update is very big for a user like me.
I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you that you should expect to hear official announcements from OEMs that intend to support the TV Pack sometime around CEDIA in early September.
al74: There are more implied promises like this by the way you just need to search. Jeff actualy made some in this thread. Let's wait and see what's going to happen with these promises. I'm willing to predict that no material update will be out before Windows 7 (and that Windows 7 won't be out before 2010), and even if there will be one, it won't be available to existing users.
There are more implied promises like this by the way you just need to search. Jeff actualy made some in this thread. Let's wait and see what's going to happen with these promises. I'm willing to predict that no material update will be out before Windows 7 (and that Windows 7 won't be out before 2010), and even if there will be one, it won't be available to existing users.
First, I have made no promises (implied or otherwise), and I ask that you please give me specific instances so that I may respond directly to the accusation.
Second, you talk about a release date for the next version of Windows and also talk of some mysterious update before then as if you heard that information from someone within Microsoft. This is exactly the kind of misinformation that leads to rumors and speculation, much more so than any "implied promises" by Microsoft employees.
JeffTucker – MSFT: dannyh: What I find surprising is that the eHome team is supposed to be a team talented developers paid to work on a particular product (Media Center) and improve the product. You would think that since they are working full-time on improving the eHome experience, and with the backing of a company as large as Microsoft, that the product would be leading the market and paving the way in terms of features. Yet this is not at all the case, and surprisingly eHome is far behind all their competitors, even though these competitors are working compeltely free (or else on donations) during their free time (as a hobby, since developing the software is not their job), and have less powerful tools and resources at their disposal. Are you saying that the TV Pack is not a significant improvement to Media Center that bridges this gap significantly? I think there are many others out there in the community that would concur with me when I say I whole-heartedly disagree. A lot of work went into this release, and while I understand the dissappointment around no H.264 and no DirecTV... you can't ignore the improvements to many other critical TV scenarios. Sure, you can argue that the OEM-only nature of this release negates that for those that don't want to buy a new PC. I get that, I really do. However, don't put down the work of the eHome team just because this was a targeted release that only officially supports specific OEM hardware configurations. Also realize that all of these improvements roll forward into the next release, and by that time we will be able to support many more hardware configurations outside of this targeted OEM release. dannyh: I understand MS is very US-centric, but if they wish to keep users outside of the US (especially in Europe), they will quickly need to implement long-awaited support for features required to watch broadcasts in these countries. I'm not even talking about features enhancements, but just basic requirements to be able to watch broadcasts in these countries. If MS does not act quickly, I feel they may loose all the goodwill from existing customers. The TV Pack has a heavy non-US focus, so I'm not sure I follow your logic here. The inclusion of DVB-T, DVB-S, and ISDB (along with in-band EPG support) are not features that benefit US customers. In fact, with the exception of QAM and inmproved ATSC... there isn't much in the TV Pack for non-US customers. This was largely an international-focused release.
I just tested the Pack with DVB-T and indeed it is a significant improvement-It also fixes the dolby surround bug, the bug that finds DVB-T channels multiple times and some more..But i cannot understand the OEM-only decision nevertheless.You have switched to selling Media Center as part of Vista after the OEM-only Release "Windows XP Media Center edition" - now you are fixing some things that weren't working right, and saying - "hey, but not for you" to thousands of people waiting.
Millions in Europe are using Media Center on their Laptops with a DVB-T USB Stick. How will they get Fiji? Their OEM never sold them a "Media Center PC".Or do you think it will be included on *any* new PC with Media Center.Regarding expectations: While it is true that Users can not expect new features from Microsoft, they can expect bugfixes! How do current customers get the bugfixes included in Fiji???
al74:[So are you happy or not with the product? It sound like you don't. As I mentioned before, if I were you I would assume that no update will come your way. After the crap they put us through, I would not assume that they care. Return you machine and get a new one with the supported update. The problem is. Buying from Dell or HP, you will have to wait very long time to be sure they actually incorporated the update into the machine you are buying. Will you trust a sales rep telling you it's there?
I heard you the first time.
I have downloaded and installed TVP. As of now I am happy as I got QAM support and a modestly better VMC performance out of it. I will not be happy if any and all improvements to VMC will be held back until the release of Windows 7 and/or left to the whims of OEMs to decide whether they will make them available to existing users or not. In that latter scenario I can see justification for an OEM withholding an update like TVP solely on the basis that it MIGHT increase calls to tech support.
And returning my machine is not an option as I have already personalized it, modified it and sold my MCE 2005 box.
Jeff and other MS,
I have stayed pretty silent on this tv pack discussion. I have been a avid media center and pusher (have installed many systems for friends) since inception when I first had to by OEM to even get media center. Then the rollup came out and hp gladly sent that to me in the mail for $5 no problem. Then you made media center non OEM only with xp media center edition I thought this was a great step foward. Then you tell me I can't get HDTV cable without OEM computer okay I bite again think oh well I want HDTV and this will give it to me. Then you don't even let OEM's push it out to existing customers?? It says for distribution with new pc's only. I am utterly shocked. I have a legit OEM cable card pc and am still left in the dark wow.
I like many have spent the weekend looking into alternatives. Yes I could get the tvpack of torrents but won't get support if it doesn't work so screw that idea. I haven't felt this shafted in a long time.
Sagetv is looking good.
Core i5 with 8gb of ram, ceton infinitv tuner, 2 hdhr OTA tuners (4 total tuners). 3 xbox 360 slims.
mark1234: I would like to make one suggestion to Microsoft: as, through the leak, you've effectively lost control of TV Pack distribution how about making it available officially. Hide it away somewhere obscure on microsoft.com to prevent casual users getting it, but allow a way for those who'll find it anyway to get a copy and for them, and Microsoft, to be sure it's clean and free of malware. It would give you back some of the control you've lost.
I would like to make one suggestion to Microsoft: as, through the leak, you've effectively lost control of TV Pack distribution how about making it available officially. Hide it away somewhere obscure on microsoft.com to prevent casual users getting it, but allow a way for those who'll find it anyway to get a copy and for them, and Microsoft, to be sure it's clean and free of malware. It would give you back some of the control you've lost.
I think Ben's initial statement says it all. "In order to ensure that users get the best experience possible, this update will only be available from OEMs, as they are best positioned to provide the testing and hardware configurations for a great customer experience." If we opened this up to the world (even if it was tucked away where no one would find it), we would still need to support it for the vast number of hardware configurations that would exist. Quite frankly, I feel that would not provide a satisfactory experience for a large number of users that are running unsupported or untested configurations. The OEMs are clearly in a better position to ensure a positive experience. Although, as I said in another post, these improvements will be rolled into the next client release and available to a much larger audience outside the OEM-only distribution channel of the TV Pack.
PLUCKYHD: Jeff and other MS, I have stayed pretty silent on this tv pack discussion. I have been a avid media center and pusher (have installed many systems for friends) since inception when I first had to by OEM to even get media center. Then the rollup came out and hp gladly sent that to me in the mail for $5 no problem. Then you made media center non OEM only with xp media center edition I thought this was a great step foward. Then you tell me I can't get HDTV cable without OEM computer okay I bite again think oh well I want HDTV and this will give it to me. Then you don't even let OEM's push it out to existing customers?? It says for distribution with new pc's only. I am utterly shocked. I have a legit OEM cable card pc and am still left in the dark wow. I like many have spent the weekend looking into alternatives. Yes I could get the tvpack of torrents but won't get support if it doesn't work so screw that idea. I haven't felt this shafted in a long time. Sagetv is looking good.
Interesting. As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack? If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment. I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.
oon2ooo:To say there is not any ulterior motives or political maneuvering in the background would suggest that the eHome team is either very inadequate at their jobs, lacking funding or horrendously managed. In any of these cases there should be some accountability for your actions.From experience in a similar software development environment, this type of result would end up with someone's feet to the fire. I can only hope your organization has the same levels of integrity and dedication to their customer base.
I'll echo Ben's response to you. There is too much "conspiracy theory" talk in these forums. While politics, business strategy, and complex partnerships do play into many decisions, anyone in software development knows that quite often it is quite simply the trade-offs between features, resources, and schedule. It's just that simple. Unfortunately for some (and fortuntately for others), sometimes the priority of a specific feature isn't high enough to put the entire release at risk. I'm not talking about anything specific here... just saying the decisions that result in these trade-offs are made by very reasonable people, and believe it or not... we all WANT these features in the product, too. Also know that the decisions that led to where we are today were TOUGH decisions, but in my opinion they were the RIGHT decisions. It isn't poor management or poor dev/test, but rather dealing with the daily challenges that come along with building and releasing software. I know that doesn't clarify the details of how and why certain things were done... but it is an honest assessment from someone that was there witnessing the events first-hand. Take it for what it is worth.
JeffTucker – MSFT: Interesting. As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack? If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment. I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.
For me it's the relaxed DRM as announced in the Cable Labs OCUR specifications in June 2008. Right now anything recorded can't be archieve or even edited (to trim start and end points if nothing else). I was thinking that I'd have the same ability I could have had with a Tivo3 HD with dual cable cards (and they have a SVA adapter on the way as well).
Now if the firware update from ATI will allow all of this without your TV Pack, then fine. But for someone with a computer going on two weeks old and made only days before the RTM announcement it seems like the only option MS gives us is to return equipment to your OEM Partners and look for other solutions.
John
XPS9100, 24 Gig, 4eSata Tower Ceton (SA-800 M) TAs T-W W Valley (LA)--Win7 Pro, 1 XP-Pro, 3-Win7 Hom Prem, 1 Macintosh X (10.4.11), 4-HP 280N extender, Linksys DMA2100, 2-DMA2200 Promise Ns4300 Raid 5
JeffTucker – MSFT:Interesting. As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack? If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment. I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.