oon2ooo:

These are the kind of things you should consider how you word before posting. This is exactly what everyone is up in arms about. You delivered no real new functionality for the US market and you went only halfway for outside the US. To make it worse you pushed it on the OEMs because you didn't want to fully test this to support the entire community. This is the type of statement that appears extremely inflammatory.

If you can't have any decent level of transparency to your plans or deliveries you ought not respond at all. Just let this mother burn.

I can't disagree, but to be fair, native clearQAM support is a big feature to many of us.

JeffTucker – MSFT:

Interesting.  As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack?  If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment.  I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.

Jeff,

For starters, because DCTs are $200-$300 per tuner, and can't be easily purchased separately, just about every DCT owner has a other tuners. I mean why not add a HDHomeRun to double the number of tuners for $150 and get out away from the DRM when possible.

So because for the first time ever, the TV Pack allows heterogenous tuner support, it is huge for owners with DCTs. (especially if the rumor that the TV Pack is required for the new DRM is true)

As for why we are so upset. It is because we just paid $1200+ for a computer (quad core CPU with 3GB of ram is obviously a way over kill for a VMC) just so we could have the privilege of recording digital cable, then to be told that there is an update that would improve the experience, but is NOT AVAILABLE without dishing out another $1200, is unheard of even in the fast paced PC industry.

I mean, we all expect our stuff to be outdated the day we buy it, and most of us look forward to the next big thing; but for MS to create an artificial distinction, for obviously unsubstantial reasons -- the TV Pack is running fine at my house -- then how can we help but feel slighted?

oon2ooo:

These are the kind of things you should consider how you word before posting. This is exactly what everyone is up in arms about. You delivered no real new functionality for the US market and you went only halfway for outside the US. To make it worse you pushed it on the OEMs because you didn't want to fully test this to support the entire community. This is the type of statement that appears extremely inflammatory.

If you can't have any decent level of transparency to your plans or deliveries you ought not respond at all. Just let this mother burn.

I'm a cablecard user, and have been since early January.  I also am running the TV Pack, and I believe that the experience has gotten better through the TVPack.  Many of the items simply are not focused 100% on cable card users.

However, features such as the ability to now also use my non Cable Card QAM tuners, being able to mix and match tuners, the guide improvements with Favorites and such make it a worthwhile improvement to me.

If you want to consider this only going halfway, then I'm happy for what I received.  Would I have wanted to wait another 3-6 months for this, just to also get the DirecTV ability?  Not really, even with the fact that DirecTV could possibly give me a better HD experience.  This does not even count all the positive Non-US experiences that have been posted about.  Did it cover every Non US country?  No.  Was it generally an across the board improvement?  Yes.

-Dravor

This new TV Pack update has really disgusted me. Now since it is an OEM only release there will need to be a new Discussion Thread added to the Forums to keep the TV Pack related issues and questions separate from us that do not have the option to install the TV Pack. So you have fractured this community even further apart. For a while this forum was filled with post from people not willing to upgrade to Vista b/c of it's numerous driver issues. Now most of us have upgraded to Vista and are very happy with out experience, but you have split the group into people willing to buy new hardware to get the update or those willing to install a bootleg copy to get the new features.
I am also very disapointed in this forum since Microsoft has purchased it. These pages were once filled with great tips and people once helped users with any questions. Now these pages are filles with complaints and useless banter.
I would love to find another forum that matches what the green button used to be. If anyone knows of one please send me the link.
Also I assumed that when Microsoft purchased this forum the result would be more participation in answering users questions and issues. But it appears Microsoft is too busy Covering their A$$es regarding the TV Pack debocle.


just my thoughts.

bjdraw:

As for why we are so upset. It is because we just paid $1200+ for a computer (quad core CPU with 3GB of ram is obviously a way over kill for a VMC) just so we could have the privilege of recording digital cable, then to be told that there is an update that would improve the experience, but is NOT AVAILABLE without dishing out another $1200, is unheard of even in the fast paced PC industry.

Ben,

I totally hear your argument.  Here's my thing, I understand if you are making this argument on behalf of Vista Media Center Users all over the world and would agree there.  I just find it silly that all of the people posting on here, complaining about this, know damn well that one way or another they will get the patch.  Everyone is acting as if this TV Pack requires some new license we won't have..... It doesn't.  Anyone on this board knows how to get a hold of this, and in turn we are more than likely going to get support from each other on this board.

So my question is, who is it that you are fighting for?  You've got the TV Pack, and you will continue to get support.  Surely sometime in December Dell will add the support for the XPS 420.  At that point no one would know the difference.

Again, I understand your argument and your point, but it's a moot point now that anyone who wants the TV Pack can get it.

-Dravor

njandtmp:

This new TV Pack update has really disgusted me. Now since it is an OEM only release there will need to be a new Discussion Thread added to the Forums to keep the TV Pack related issues and questions separate from us that do not have the option to install the TV Pack. So you have fractured this community even further apart. For a while this forum was filled with post from people not willing to upgrade to Vista b/c of it's numerous driver issues. Now most of us have upgraded to Vista and are very happy with out experience, but you have split the group into people willing to buy new hardware to get the update or those willing to install a bootleg copy to get the new features.
I am also very disapointed in this forum since Microsoft has purchased it. These pages were once filled with great tips and people once helped users with any questions. Now these pages are filles with complaints and useless banter.
I would love to find another forum that matches what the green button used to be. If anyone knows of one please send me the link.
Also I assumed that when Microsoft purchased this forum the result would be more participation in answering users questions and issues. But it appears Microsoft is too busy Covering their A$$es regarding the TV Pack debocle.


just my thoughts.

Microsoft has had an increased presence since the purchase, and a large part of their presence has yet to be seen because it lives on their servers waiting to be deployed to www.thegreenbutton.com (eg. forum upgrade).

Those pages of complaints and useless banter have been here at The Green Button long before Microsoft had anything to do with it, but there is still a very active community involved in developing plug-ins, helping others with their Media Center questions or issues, etc.  With every Media Center release over the past few years TGB gets overrun with pages and pages of nothing but talk about the new release (good and bad), so that is kind of par for the course when you are talking about a forum dedicated to a single product.

Microsoft presence will continue to pick up in the form of question answering, but considering they still pan to "officially official" announce the TV Pack at CEDIA you can see why they might still be quite on the subject.

njandtmp:

This new TV Pack update has really disgusted me.....

So I respect your thoughts but:

1.)  You and every other member of this board knows where to get the TV Pack, and I'm sure at some point all will apply it. 
2.)  CableCard tuners have been OEM only and so far have not caused a huge separation of issues.  This becomes even more moot as everyone starts getting a hold of the TVPack and installing it. 
3.)  What exactly is the difference between User A with a XPS 420 purchased in January, who installed the TVPack on his own, and User B who purchases a XPS 420 next month which comes with the TV Pack installed?  Nothing.  It's a Moot Point.
4.)  The reason there is so much banter and bitterness is because of the MS presence.  The MS folks are not bickering, it's us users that are.  Just because MS is willing to listen and take suggestions, does not mean you are now privledged to insider information and the entire Road Map for Media Center.  It's no different than going to Google and asking them what their plans are for their search engine optimization over the next year.  Being a member of a MS owned forum, does not give you special MS employee distinction.

-Dravor

JeffTucker – MSFT:

PLUCKYHD:

Jeff and other MS,

I have stayed pretty silent on this tv pack discussion. I have been a avid media center and pusher (have installed many systems for friends) since inception when I first had to by OEM to even get media center. Then the rollup came out and hp gladly sent that to me in the mail for $5 no problem. Then you made media center non OEM only with xp media center edition I thought this was a great step foward. Then you tell me I can't get HDTV cable without OEM computer okay I bite again think oh well I want HDTV and this will give it to me. Then you don't even let OEM's push it out to existing customers?? It says for distribution with new pc's only. I am utterly shocked. I have a legit OEM cable card pc and am still left in the dark wow.

I like many have spent the weekend looking into alternatives. Yes I could get the tvpack of torrents but won't get support if it doesn't work so screw that idea.  I haven't felt this shafted in a long time.

Sagetv is looking good.

Interesting.  As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack?  If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment.  I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.

I have a CableCARD PC that I purchased back in February and I would love to use the TV Pack on it. However, the main thing that is preventing this is the .WTV file format. Is there any word on when this is going to be a supported file type on other PCs? Also, I use Windows DVD Maker to burn some programs that I record on the HDHR and I can't do that with anything recorded with TV Pack because Windows DVD Maker doesn't recognize it.

Ultimately I am not trying to suggest there is no results for all of the work Microsoft has done. I am only suggesting that this has come (in practically every market) short of expectations by a long shot. And I think I can speak for a lot of people here in suggesting what we are looking for is an acknowledgment of this.

We are clearly upset because we are the biggest supporters of this product. Having Microsoft's presence here in the forums only blowing smoke up our behinds and trying to pander to what they succeeded in does not help us to feel like our loyalty is regarded in good esteem. Prior to this fiasco I had convinced three other people to let me build VMC systems for them. Since this, I have recommended to them and two additional people to stay away (as we have no information to suggest when this might actually catch up).

If Microsoft was to simply say they are sorry for under delivering, highlight the steps they are taking to support some of the features everyone is looking for, and start providing some actual timelines and expectations it would go a long way. I mean since when is it ridiculous to expect that companies tell you what they are doing and when they will be delivering it?

I mean if I went in not telling my customers what they will get and never sticking to a deadline for what I do, what kind of kind of business would I be in? Apparently I would be in media software...

dravor:

3.)  What exactly is the difference between User A with a XPS 420 purchased in January, who installed the TVPack on his own, and User B who purchases a XPS 420 next month which comes with the TV Pack installed?  Nothing.  It's a Moot Point.

It's not a moot point if User A is denied any tech support for his machine while still within the warranty period simply for having installed an update that should have been made available to him legitimately.

CycleWriter:

dravor:

3.)  What exactly is the difference between User A with a XPS 420 purchased in January, who installed the TVPack on his own, and User B who purchases a XPS 420 next month which comes with the TV Pack installed?  Nothing.  It's a Moot Point.

It's not a moot point if User A is denied any tech support for his machine while still within the warranty period simply for having installed an update that should have been made available to him legitimately.

And who will deny you that? 
Dell?  Dell is not going to care how you aquired it.  For all they know, they sent you a replacement Install Disc which included it.

S1 has already made aware all S1 owners that if they have "lost" their install Disc, they will be sent a TV Pack included replacement.

-D

bjdraw:

JeffTucker – MSFT:

Interesting.  As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack?  If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment.  I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.

Jeff,

For starters, because DCTs are $200-$300 per tuner, and can't be easily purchased separately, just about every DCT owner has a other tuners. I mean why not add a HDHomeRun to double the number of tuners for $150 and get out away from the DRM when possible.

So because for the first time ever, the TV Pack allows heterogenous tuner support, it is huge for owners with DCTs. (especially if the rumor that the TV Pack is required for the new DRM is true)

As for why we are so upset. It is because we just paid $1200+ for a computer (quad core CPU with 3GB of ram is obviously a way over kill for a VMC) just so we could have the privilege of recording digital cable, then to be told that there is an update that would improve the experience, but is NOT AVAILABLE without dishing out another $1200, is unheard of even in the fast paced PC industry.

I mean, we all expect our stuff to be outdated the day we buy it, and most of us look forward to the next big thing; but for MS to create an artificial distinction, for obviously unsubstantial reasons -- the TV Pack is running fine at my house -- then how can we help but feel slighted?

Fair enough, Ben.  I wans't trying to say that there is NO benefit.  Obviously there is a little benefit for everyone... it is a new release, after all.  I guess my point was simply that our focus in this release was mainly on the large user-base that has no native support for their primary broadcast standard (DVB-T, DVB-S, ISDB-T, etc.).

JeffTucker – MSFT:

oon2ooo:

To say there is not any ulterior motives or political maneuvering in the background would suggest that the eHome team is either very inadequate at their jobs, lacking funding or horrendously managed. In any of these cases there should be some accountability for your actions.

From experience in a similar software development environment, this type of result would end up with someone's feet to the fire. I can only hope your organization has the same levels of integrity and dedication to their customer base.

I'll echo Ben's response to you.  There is too much "conspiracy theory" talk in these forums.  While politics, business strategy, and complex partnerships do play into many decisions, anyone in software development knows that quite often it is quite simply the trade-offs between features, resources, and schedule.  It's just that simple.  Unfortunately for some (and fortuntately for others), sometimes the priority of a specific feature isn't high enough to put the entire release at risk.  I'm not talking about anything specific here... just saying the decisions that result in these trade-offs are made by very reasonable people, and believe it or not... we all WANT these features in the product, too.  Also know that the decisions that led to where we are today were TOUGH decisions, but in my opinion they were the RIGHT decisions.  It isn't poor management or poor dev/test, but rather dealing with the daily challenges that come along with building and releasing software.  I know that doesn't clarify the details of how and why certain things were done... but it is an honest assessment from someone that was there witnessing the events first-hand.  Take it for what it is worth.

What was the logic behind including in all Vista home premium editions and above and than including tv pack and cable cards only to OEMs? From my point of view the mistake was to include media center in Vista and not leave it as an OEM only. This for example would require all media center vista to be cable card ready but it seems now you have VMC, VMC Cable Card and VMC with TV Pack.

JeffTucker – MSFT:

bjdraw:

JeffTucker – MSFT:

Interesting.  As a US CableCard user, exactly what benefit do you expect to get out of the TV Pack?  If you look at what this includes, there really isn't much there for your particular user segment.  I'm not clear exactly why you would be so upset.

Jeff,

For starters, because DCTs are $200-$300 per tuner, and can't be easily purchased separately, just about every DCT owner has a other tuners. I mean why not add a HDHomeRun to double the number of tuners for $150 and get out away from the DRM when possible.

So because for the first time ever, the TV Pack allows heterogenous tuner support, it is huge for owners with DCTs. (especially if the rumor that the TV Pack is required for the new DRM is true)

As for why we are so upset. It is because we just paid $1200+ for a computer (quad core CPU with 3GB of ram is obviously a way over kill for a VMC) just so we could have the privilege of recording digital cable, then to be told that there is an update that would improve the experience, but is NOT AVAILABLE without dishing out another $1200, is unheard of even in the fast paced PC industry.

I mean, we all expect our stuff to be outdated the day we buy it, and most of us look forward to the next big thing; but for MS to create an artificial distinction, for obviously unsubstantial reasons -- the TV Pack is running fine at my house -- then how can we help but feel slighted?

Fair enough, Ben.  I wans't trying to say that there is NO benefit.  Obviously there is a little benefit for everyone... it is a new release, after all.  I guess my point was simply that our focus in this release was mainly on the large user-base that has no native support for their primary broadcast standard (DVB-T, DVB-S, ISDB-T, etc.).

I echo Ben's statement he answered before I did. I am also not understanding why you say it's primary focus is international. I understand that but it has many features us US users have been screaming for and are denied. It is more than a little benefit don't understimate your work. Yes is doesn't have the h.264 or directv but the stuff it does have I have been wanting for a while. You have left your big money spenders (cablecard buyers) in the dark. ( I am talking on the media center side). I seriously can't believe MS would not think US users would benefit from this update.

dravor:

bjdraw:

As for why we are so upset. It is because we just paid $1200+ for a computer (quad core CPU with 3GB of ram is obviously a way over kill for a VMC) just so we could have the privilege of recording digital cable, then to be told that there is an update that would improve the experience, but is NOT AVAILABLE without dishing out another $1200, is unheard of even in the fast paced PC industry.

Ben,

I totally hear your argument.  Here's my thing, I understand if you are making this argument on behalf of Vista Media Center Users all over the world and would agree there.  I just find it silly that all of the people posting on here, complaining about this, know damn well that one way or another they will get the patch.  Everyone is acting as if this TV Pack requires some new license we won't have..... It doesn't.  Anyone on this board knows how to get a hold of this, and in turn we are more than likely going to get support from each other on this board.

So my question is, who is it that you are fighting for?  You've got the TV Pack, and you will continue to get support.  Surely sometime in December Dell will add the support for the XPS 420.  At that point no one would know the difference.

Again, I understand your argument and your point, but it's a moot point now that anyone who wants the TV Pack can get it.

-Dravor

 

Dravor,

It's not a mute point to the many users that don't spend half their lives on forums like us. Yes they don't know what their missing but shouldn't have to search forums and torrent sites to find what they are missing. I agree I could install the tvpack, but what about the 10 installs I have done for people with cable card pcs? Do I tell them hey MS came out with some great software but it won't be supported by anyone and you are at your own risk to install it. That will go over well with my customers.