I think I am getting a bit of a clearer picture as to what has happened with the TV Pack. Jeff did not support this release being made OEM only but the order came from above and he is doing his best to publically support this approach.
However, I would not be greatly surprised if Jeff did nothing to discourage the leak of the TV pack - so those of us with it, count your blessings as something is better than nothing. If Jeff had really wanted to he could've removed the links to the download. Of course there is nothing stopping lots of people getting the file in other ways but by not doing so shows that he is really not opposed to people installing it.
So to all of those attacking Jeff, he is really not the "enemy", I believe he is on our side and fighting to get us what he can within the boundaries of his working environment.
Now that the TV Pack is out there however, I think it would really help the communication (which is meant to be what the MS-TGB was all about) if the following questions could be answered:
Jeff - I really appreciate you putting in the time on this. Working Sundays to placate everyone here cannot be easy. I know you want to help even if you can't always publically communicate this so clearly.
Alistair
No one is being accused of anything, and I'm not going to argue semantics. I was merely making a statement pertaining to the current relationship that eHome has with the TGB community. We have been accused of making false promises, betraying users, and intentionally making decisions to alienate the community. Add to that the expectations around the TV Pack, and the impact to the community when expectations were not met... I just wanted to get it all out on the table in the most transparent way possible. I wasn't trying to insult anyone or feed into the current negativity. I was just being REAL about the situation. I'll substitue the word "pirated" with "unofficially obtained" if that makes you feel better.
That said. Here are the facts:
All of these facts (from the communities perspective) have led to rampant speculation about whether we leaked it ourselves or if there are other sinister plans in the works. The fact is... we had a decision to make when this got leaked. We could do one of two things...
Option A: Ignore everything I have been saying about letting the site operate as it did before, and delete the links and cease conversations.
Option B: Stick to my word and refuse to censor this site.
We decided to go with Option B. Anything else would have essentially destroyed what little trust I have built with the community, and I fought like crazy to make sure that free-speech reigns. I saw this as a victory for the community, but apparently it caused more problems than it was worth to most of you. I just want to let the community be free, and talk about anything they like... even software that is "unofficially obtained".
Many points well stated, Alistiar. I think my last response confirms some of what you are saying. Here are my best answers to some of your questions.
asm495: Why was the decision made for TV Pack to be OEM only?
I need to refer back to Ben's statement about the number of supported hardware configurations and OEM testing. I'm not sure what else I can say. There might have been some business factors, but a lot of it was the magic trade-off triangle of features, resources, and schedule. Think of every possible hardware configuration as a feature, and when it came down to it... we had to cut broad hardware support as a feature. Some would say "but you are Microsoft and have unlimited resources". If only that were true. We actually aren't a huge team (in comparison with some other Microsoft teams), and we were driving this project in parallel with our work on the next Windows release. Not an excuse... just a fact.
Keep in mind this is all from my perspective, and these decisions are made above my pay-grade.
asm495: Is there going to be a change of schedule for Media Center releases to be more often? (considering the TV Pack debacle)
In general, we will continue to ship with Windows. If we did not ship with Windows, we would have no funding for our team. It is just that simple. However, there are several efforts within the team to work on features that "light up" out of band. Look at Sports, Online Media, and Internet TV as examples. You could see us expand into other areas of the product in the future, as well.
asm495: When will the updates to TGB be made so that we can really see the improvments that were planned for this?
The current goal is late September. We are working directly with Telligent to have them help with the upgrade and migration, because we want to ensure this goes as smooth as possible. The last thing we need is to crash the site. It is taking a little bit longer, because the upgrade path requires us to re-theme the site and slightly restructure the homepage. We're also thinking about making the forum structure changes then, as well.
asm495: Now that TV Pack has been leaked is there any reason not to make the release an offical one that could be downloaded from the MS website?
The same exact reasons we made it an OEM only release in the first place.
asm495: Is it possible for a non-timebombed H.264 supporting DLL to be released? (My wife and I were watching some amazing BBC HD programming last night (Britain From Above) and it seems crazy to lose this)
This one seems like a tall order.
I'm disappointed that it looks like there will not be any new "core" functionality before Win7. However, I appreciate the constraints that you are under in terms of resourcing. The problem I think therefore lies at the management of MS that they do not consider Media Center a core product that is worthy of individual application releases and updates (such as WHS appears to be getting). I'm not sure there is anything that we can do to change this. Maybe a change of model is appropriate... i.e. sell Media Center for £50 and get TV tuner manufacturers to bundle it with their hardware (in place of the usual rubbish they release). Personally I'd be happy to pay for the product separately from Windows if I could get more regular updates.
I can see how you're trying to push the online content - Sports, online media etc. - particularly as it is an easy to get updates released. However, I for one have rarely if ever looked at this area and I don't think many others have seeing how these kinds of content come and go so often. It may be the future but for now broadcast service support is where things are at. Just look at the survey of feature requests and virtually all of them are for TVsupport (particularly HD) - the demand for this is truly international.
JeffTucker – MSFT: asm495: Is it possible for a non-timebombed H.264 supporting DLL to be released? (My wife and I were watching some amazing BBC HD programming last night (Britain From Above) and it seems crazy to lose this) This one seems like a tall order.
I'm sure you know how many people want H.264 - just doing this one thing would make a very large number of people happy! I've had a bit of a poke around at the DLL myself but I'm no expert in assembly (not since I programmed Z80 CPUs about 15 years ago) but hopefully I might have some luck.
As an aside, I still believe that there is a market for a Home Server "Plus" which has all the features of WHS in addition to a Media Center "tuner farm" which can push content to extenders (PCs (softsled), Xbox 360s and dedicated devices). This is truly the "eHome" which should be targetted in my opinion.
asm495: As an aside, I still believe that there is a market for a Home Server "Plus" which has all the features of WHS in addition to a Media Center "tuner farm" which can push content to extenders (PCs (softsled), Xbox 360s and dedicated devices). This is truly the "eHome" which should be targetted in my opinion. Alistair
I agree 100%! - Everyone I met who first heard about Windows Home Server actually assumed, that this is part of its feature set. I always have to explain "No, WHS has nothing to offer in terms of TV!".
Good luck with disabling the time bomb. I'm sure that would make a lot of users very happy! I do wonder if that approach is somewhat akin to taking a hammer to crack a nut though? Prior to TV Pack 2008, the decoder used to decode MPEG2 could be set via a utility which in turn, simply altered the required registry setting. I would imagine that now MCE can decode H.264 as well as MPEG2, this registry setting has been split into multiple settings. Finding this new registry setting and setting it in much the same way as we did before could well be the answer.
Just a thought?
Russ.
RussKing: Good luck with disabling the time bomb. I'm sure that would make a lot of users very happy! I do wonder if that approach is somewhat akin to taking a hammer to crack a nut though? Prior to TV Park 2008, the decoder used to decode MPEG2 could be set via a utility which in turn, simply altered the required registry setting. I would imagine that now MCE can decode H.264 as well as MPEG2, this registry setting has been split into multiple settings. Finding this new registry setting and setting it in much the same way as we did before could well be the answer. Just a thought? Russ.
Good luck with disabling the time bomb. I'm sure that would make a lot of users very happy! I do wonder if that approach is somewhat akin to taking a hammer to crack a nut though? Prior to TV Park 2008, the decoder used to decode MPEG2 could be set via a utility which in turn, simply altered the required registry setting. I would imagine that now MCE can decode H.264 as well as MPEG2, this registry setting has been split into multiple settings. Finding this new registry setting and setting it in much the same way as we did before could well be the answer.
Unfortunately this has already been tried (there were 2 new keys in the same place as the MPEG2 ones were) and it did not work.
habnix: asm495: As an aside, I still believe that there is a market for a Home Server "Plus" which has all the features of WHS in addition to a Media Center "tuner farm" which can push content to extenders (PCs (softsled), Xbox 360s and dedicated devices). This is truly the "eHome" which should be targetted in my opinion. Alistair I agree 100%! - Everyone I met who first heard about Windows Home Server actually assumed, that this is part of its feature set. I always have to explain "No, WHS has nothing to offer in terms of TV!".
I too totally agree! It makes no sense having a WHS on 24/7 as well as a MCE PC simply to serve extenders. A single WHS server with tuners would be the ultimate goal. This will not/cannot happen though until WHS moves over to the server 2008 platform. WHS2 perhaps?
Jeff.
I'm hearing what you are saying and I must give you credit right now for trying to handle this thunderstorm.
It's OEM for now, not much to do about that.
You state that the major problem for releasing it directly to users is the large amount of different types of HW and the support effort to handle that. That seems to be about the same problem as we had with early versions of windows NT. Back then the HCL was the holy grail and the problem went away as the market evolved.
The good thing is that it laid the foundation for the idea of certified drivers and WHQL. 32Bit could be a little tricky but for 64 bit all driver should be signed already. That would make it possible for the TV-pack installer to require that the detected tv-card(s) must be on the HCL and that there must be a driver for it on windows update. That way you should be able to ensure a good quality and experiance for the users and still reach a larger customer base.
Jeff - Not all of us "hate" VMC or the eHome Team.
Media Center is still a brilliant tool, everyone that sees my three setups is wowed, the kids and the wife love the combination of the ease of use and advanced features, and we have a significant set of plugins available now (although I can't see why some developers see to duplicate effort and re-develop existing plugins).
The added features are ones that have been "annoying" for some time - channel sorting, multi-channel sound/languages, multi TV Card types. It all makes sense to me, and it shows that the eHome have been listening to (or lurking on) the forums for some time. It shows that you take on board what the community says.
I love the fact that I can live with Media Center, now - even if I change TV sources and I don't have to keep re-investing (I seem to be generating a huge pile of redundant freeview boxes where the tuners pack up, DVD players, VHS Recorders etc).
It DOES seem a strange choice have taken HD out especially since we seem to be finally getting somewhere with the HD "thing", but the OEM situation I couldn't care less about, really - I suspect that what you've actually done is release to OEMs FIRST rather than ONLY.
Anyone for a "I heart eHome" T-Shirt?
asm495: JeffTucker – MSFT: asm495: Is it possible for a non-timebombed H.264 supporting DLL to be released? (My wife and I were watching some amazing BBC HD programming last night (Britain From Above) and it seems crazy to lose this) This one seems like a tall order. I'm sure you know how many people want H.264 - just doing this one thing would make a very large number of people happy! I've had a bit of a poke around at the DLL myself but I'm no expert in assembly (not since I programmed Z80 CPUs about 15 years ago) but hopefully I might have some luck.
What must I do to get the DLL? ant to make it work?
Thank you.
asm495: RussKing: Good luck with disabling the time bomb. I'm sure that would make a lot of users very happy! I do wonder if that approach is somewhat akin to taking a hammer to crack a nut though? Prior to TV Park 2008, the decoder used to decode MPEG2 could be set via a utility which in turn, simply altered the required registry setting. I would imagine that now MCE can decode H.264 as well as MPEG2, this registry setting has been split into multiple settings. Finding this new registry setting and setting it in much the same way as we did before could well be the answer. Just a thought? Russ. Unfortunately this has already been tried (there were 2 new keys in the same place as the MPEG2 ones were) and it did not work.
That's strange?
If this is indeed the case, I wish you all the luck in the world as from what I have read, the beta dll has worked wonderfully for most.
I'm not sure if MS can comment at this time (no problem if you can't, I fully understand) but am I right in thinking that the decoder used for H.264 is actually definable some how? The reason I ask is that from what I have read so far, the framework is obviously in place in the RTM to demux the H.264 stream as users have replaced the RTM video decoder dll with the beta video decoder dll in order to decode it. Microsoft (understandably) may not want to ever deploy an H.264 decoder for various reasons such as licensing costs or support. I would have fully expected however an OEM to have the ability to determine what H.264 decoder is used as they are the front line in supporting an OEM release such as TV Pack 2008.
Hello,
I've gotten a hold of the package trough "other channels" and installed it on top of my existing setup, without doing a reinstall of Vista.
Everything worked perfect!
Old recorded TV shows, showed up with thumbnails and I were able to scan for new channels etc.
The only thing I had to do was to do a re-scan of all channels and re-map the TV-guide on the channels which needed that.
At least for Norway, the new features in the TV pack are something I would consider essential and something which really should be released to the general market. Just too bad that the HD support has been removed, as more and more channels starts broadcasting in HD.
Media Center is a product which has great potential and something which I think should get a better attention. Using the set-top boxes from your cable card provider, is years behind the experience you get trough Media Center. Even my mother manages to use Media Center, which says a lot....
JeffTucker – MSFT: The TV Pack release has gone through several evolutions over time, and in the end... we could not deliver everything our enthusiast community was expecting. We could, however, deliver a really great OEM experience, and do it in parallel with our efforts for the next major windows release (which like it or not... IS our primary release vehicle at the moment).
the problem with the last part of that statement is, its sounds like youve dropped support for an existing and active product
i dont see how microsoft can contradict themselves by saying they want to you stop using xp and use vista and then have have an existing team ignore vista and work on windows 7
whats to stop this from happening again come windows 7 and the ehome team is working on stuff for windows 8?