With rummors that Apple are to relaunch their Apple TV product and perhaps even launch an actual Apple TV screen with integrated iTV sometime in 2011 in an attempt to get a foot hold in living rooms, do you think Microsoft will all respond by remembering about their eHome Media Center strategy?

Recent history tends to support the hypothesis that Microsoft while often coming up with good ideas in their R&D they, also always manage to somehow fail to put the effort into them required to really drive home the advantage (Obviously excluding the core Windows, Office and Server products) I am thinking more of consumer product lines, TV, music, phone all the consumer gadget market.

Slates/Tablets a half baked idea that wasn't sure of its purpose, then the iPad comes out and Ballmer reckons that it now critically important that Microsft up their game in that area.

In 2007 Ballmer laughs off iPhone, while Windows Mobile was fairly stagnant, and only now is Windows Phone 7 starting to look like a 'cool' product.

I do find myself questioning whether Ballmer really has a vision to push Microsoft in all of the directions it should be going simultaneously or wherher it is always just knee jerk reaction.  But you know what I don't really care, I am a simply a Media Center user, and just hope that if Apple make a push to be a user interface on TVs that it might awaken interest in Mediacenter within Microsoft, and perhaps the 3 to 4 years dormant period in the product development cycle will be broken. 

 

I totally disagree with you that Microsoft is somehow behind the curve in home entertainment. I am right at this moment surrounded by a setup and ecosystem that denies the reality of that statement. Is it perfect? Abosolutely not and I have serious doubts that in this scattered world of technology and complete economic turmoil that perfection is even possible. I do believe Microsoft will continue to bring things together at their own pace unfortunately but even they know they must continue to do so. I don't think the new Apple TV will be much more than a cheap way to get iTunes and simplistic apps onto your TV. It's going to be so underpowered that it might not display 1080p video according to reports. I believe Microsoft is in a good spot to take on Apple TV and Google TV using Windows 7 and the Xbox 360. The ball is in their court if they can just integrate Media Center, Zune, Windows Media Player, Hulu and Netflix they would have a product that is as connectable and usable as any Google TV or Apple TV solution as well as being a top notch gaming system. You throw in Windows 7 Media Center extender into a unified Xbox 360 app and you have a product that would be ten times better than what Apple and Google are talking about. I believe that even without integration, the Microsoft answers to home entertainment and connectivity are still better than anything out there. That may not be the "buzz" on the street and I think that's just an example of the falsified world we currently live in unfortunately. I still enjoy the fact that Microsoft doesn't feel like they have to hold my hand at every turn. Grandma and grandpa are going to love Google TV and the new Apple TV. Maybe that's a better way of expressing my feelings about it. Q.

Microsoft's future for the living room is the Xbox 360 (I'm not talking about the current Extender software in the Xbox 360 either).  It's hard to argue that any other consumer platform of theirs has been a success.  I think the DVR, the feature that set Media Center apart will also be the feature that will go in order to make Microsoft more competitive.  Streaming is the future for Microsoft, they don't have a choice.  The market for a product that includes a DVR as a core feature is limited (at these pricing points) and will continue to be a problem. Microsoft's failure to market it, and their partners failure to implement and market connected solutions based on it (they really have very few partners left to push Media Center).

Edit: And again, the next possible Media Center release would be with Windows 8 which will put it in the market well after any new Apple or Google TV (both of which will have significantly lower pricing points than any Media Center based solution)

While, in recent times, it has been in vogue for Apple and Google products to be blindly accepted as the greatest gift to man, lets not forget that they both have failures too. The first few iterations of Apple TV never became big. The iPhone 4 has been universally scorned for such bad engineering. Google Buzz went the way of the dodo. And Google Shopping (previously known as Froogle) never quite took off like other shopping websites. So while its good to keep track of what others are developing, we can't just assume that they will change the landscape of technology.

That being said, I agree with ChiWax that the eHome team product cycle is a bit too slow for me. It means they can't respond to other challenges, like Apple TV and Google TV, as quickly. But Media Center I believe is the best of the best in terms of its DVR functionality. Its internet connectivity- like for downloading/buying movies and tv shows- is still not that great. The only thing Google TV brings to the table is a universal search, which I think is a gimmick. But MS has the pieces to put it all together and make a complete DVR+Internet package.

@makryger I really think they have the tools if they would just bring them all together.  I hear what Chris Lanier is saying and it's quite possible he is right.  I really hope he isn't but he very well could be.  I don't understand why they can't just put all these tools together.  It actually baffles me the more I think about it.  They have Netflix in Media Center and on the 360.  You can access Hulu with any HTPC and it's coming to the 360.  They have the Zune software with great content and the Zune Pass.  I really don't understand why they can't bring it all together on both the PC and the 360.  What's the frickin problem?  How could it be so difficult?  I think the answer to Chris Lanier's thinking about the DVR functions is an easy ON/OFF function so those who have no intention of using the DVR function can just go without it.  I don't understand where Microsoft would benefit from removing the guide and the recording capabilities from Windows in the future.  Just put all this action together and be done with it.  Stop using multiple apps on both Windows and the 360.  Bring Zune functionality, Hulu and Netflix, DVR function, even Amazon On-Demand into one unified experience on both Windows and 360s.  Otherwise stuff like the Apple TV and Google TV both look better to a consumer as "one-stop shopping" even if in reality they are not even close to that.  Q.

The issue with the DVR is not turning it off or on.  It adds significant cost (currently +$400 to access Digital Cable), and also inflates the hardware specs.  Analog capture is cheap, but you are hardly going to sell this to people (difficult to setup, poor quality, no HD, etc).  OTA DVR is nice, but it is hardly worth the price of entry.  Plus, the majority of people in the US still don't know they can get HD this way and Microsoft and/or their partners would rather sell you content (eg. Hulu Plus only offers shows that you can get OTA, they offer nothing from cable).

The lowest Media Center can currently run on is Atom w/ ION for a semi-decent experience (this is sans Extender's IMHO which add to the hardware requirements for a nice experience).  Google TV and Apple TV (in theory) can run on low powered, low cost, and optimized SoC's or ARM.  Windows 7 really hasn't been developed to run on anything but x86.  Maybe we will see them develop a ARM port of Media Center for Windows Embedded, but the concept of that product is to push it to service providers and not so much the end user (I don't believe any reasonable sized service provider in the US will offer this product).

 I love the idea of bring Zune, Hulu, Netflix, and Amazon to Windows and the 360.  It's already on Windows via a web broswer, which just happens to be where most people experience the content today, and the Xbox 360 already has most of them.

The DVR will have to go to make Microsoft be a player in the living room now.  8 years ago when Media Center was first released this wasn't the case, but Microsoft failed to capitalize on this at all and now they will have to shift away from the Media Center platform to another platform (eg. Xbox 360) that actually has an install base in living rooms.

BTW, this is why I like the approach Google is taking.  I have no idea if Google TV will prove successful in the market, but the concept of not attempting to replace the DVR clearly shows they looked at the market and found some problems.  Honestly I think working with service providers is the only way that portion of Google TV works (eg. Dish control over IP), but again as we have seen with Media Center service providers generally don't jump at the chance to work on these sort of things.  The fact that Google isn't trying to out right replace the software that service providers have to support might push some of them over the edge (Comcast has to support my CableCARD device despite their techs clearly not being trained on Media Center).

@Chris I think you are correct but I don't see the problem with Microsoft leaving the functionality in there if people want to use it. I think it's exactly what I am talking about really. If you want Zune content go into the Zune app. If you want Amazon go into the Amazon app. If you want Hulu go into the Hulu app. If you want DVR functionality on your 360 go into the extender app. Just put em all together and if you don't need the extender functionality then you don't have to enable it when you setup. Microsoft is the only company that has the opportunity to bring all the web content, streaming or other, your home content and something like Monday Night Football all into the same place as well as offering superior gaming over Apple or Google. It's there and the worst part is, they know it. Q.

ChiWax

It's there and the worst part is, they know it. Q.

 

No, the worst part is that the majority of users don't want to pay for this or just don't want it at all.

Chris - Moderator

No, the worst part is that the majority of users don't want to pay for this or just don't want it at all.

I don't see how combining all the software and including the DVR functionality with an on/off switch would matter if only so many people will use the DVR functionality.  The masses can still use the other functions and the rest of us can use all of the functions.  I get that they aren't going to focus on DVR.  I get that and I get your points about it.  I don't think it would be any skin off Microsoft's back if they continue to leave the DVR function in there and provide guide function etc.  According to some predictions, Ceton just took the biggest gamble in HTPC history if you guys are correct!  If Microsoft doesn't leave a way to enjoy Monday Night Football or HBO programming in their living room solutions, they don't stand a chance.  Q.

ChiWax

If Microsoft doesn't leave a way to enjoy Monday Night Football or HBO programming in their living room solutions, they don't stand a chance.

As Chris has said many times and as is obvious from the advertising, Microsoft has no intention of Media Center being a solution for watching NFL or HBO in your living room.  Microsoft has gotten away from Media Center being a whole-house media solution, or even HTPC software.  Media Center is about 'TV on Your PC."  That's why the commercials all show folks using laptops.  Look at the top of The Green Button, for crying out loud.  The ironic (or moronic) thing about this is why would I want a 10-foot interface to watch TV on my laptop screen?!?  The interface is not even all that good with the mouse!  I'd much rather watch "TV on my PC" through Media Player, not Media Center.

If I am wrong Microsoft, please correct me, then go correct your marketing strategy.

@kingwr As far as I can tell Microsoft is my answer for doing just that. What does their marketing strategy have to do with leaving Media Center functionality in Windows and Xbox 360s? They are the only company with the opportunity to do all things entertainment. Just because they don't add some of the obsessions of HTPC enthusiasts into Media Center doesn't mean it's completely dead and unable to provide entertainment. It also doesn't mean they can't shore things up when it comes to connected entertainment in the living room. Most people on The Green Button seem to loathe the 360 but it's a pretty popular product. Microsoft has the opportunity to consolidate all this action with the added plus of DVR if a person wants to invest a little further in it. Meanwhile they are offering a top notch gaming experience. I'm not saying they will realize this possibility, I am simply saying all the groundwork is there. If they do realize the possibility, something like Google TV and Apple TV will just be more toys from the San Fran boys. I personally think a relatively smart person can already use Microsoft's wares to entertain themselves at a much higher level even without the proper integration that's missing. This thread started with a thought that the Apple TV refresh is somehow going to be superior to what Microsoft offers. I think it's funny that because it's missing some things people on here have been begging Microsoft for years about, the idea is that Apple's product or even Google's product is going to be better than what is being offered right now. The game in home entertainment, mobile communication, and toy tablets is not over quite yet. I don't blame Microsoft for pushing Media Center on laptops either. Advertising costs money and laptops are hot and are probably a huge margin for their partners. None of this means the Media Player Solution in Windows 8 won't have DVR functionality. The question I have for Microsoft is if the media solution in Windows 8 will be consolidated. Q.

Chris - Moderator

Google TV and Apple TV (in theory) can run on low powered, low cost, and optimized SoC's or ARM.

Engadget reported that the new Apple TV might not even be able to push out 1080p. Hulu is pretty much garbage when it comes to real picture quality. So the theory is that people are going to buy $1500-$2200 TVs to watch 720p or crappy Hulu on? This is America, so maybe that theory is a correct one. Q.

ChiWax

Engadget reported that the new Apple TV might not even be able to push out 1080p. Hulu is pretty much garbage when it comes to real picture quality. So the theory is that people are going to buy $1500-$2200 TVs to watch 720p or crappy Hulu on? This is America, so maybe that theory is a correct one. Q.

This problem is 90% marketing. 720p can really be fantastic. Video professionals know this. Hell, for years high end display mfgs like Runco didn't produce a 1080i/p display because they spent all of their time making 720p all it could be. 1080p is fantastic, but it has become nothing but marketing BS for most companies.

I've never seen anyone claim that ESPN doesn't look good because its not 1080i. I've never seen anyone say they can see a difference between a sitcom on NBC (1080i) or on FOX (720p). LIkewise if NBC was broadcast in 1080p no one would say it magically looks better than FOX in 720p. Most people don't know what channels are broadcast in what resolution. They only started to care because someone told them 1080p was soooo much better and everything else was trash.

BTW, for years people have spent money on HDTVs and connected their old cable/sat STB with S-Video and never known the difference. It's only because people now know the marketing behind 1080p that they think they need it. Of course, low bitrate 1080p is much worse than high(er) bitrate 720p on any resolution display. You just market it as "HD" instead of 720p HD vs. 1080p HD and people never know the difference.

@Chris Lanier I actually convert a lot of stuff to 720p WMVHD. It wasn't the point I was trying to make. TVs cost a lot of money and I doubt people are going to be satisfied with something like Hulu in 720p in the longrun. If other markets start going even further with hi-definition in the next decade I doubt the smart consumers in this country will be satisfied with their Logitech Google TV box. You are talking about the "Springer" crowd in my opinion. Your accusing the Zune team of being basically out of their minds for offering up 1080 streaming and bragging about it in their marketing. In one instance marketing points to the death of Media Center and in another it's pointless drivel? It has nothing to do with integrating existing software and leaving in the DVR functionality anyway. Just because laptops are hot and Microsoft wants to capitalize on that, Media Center on the TV must be dead? Meanwhile Google and Apple are both preparing to make a move on the TV. Apple so they can sell more apps and video downloads. Google so they can have the TV search results of the nation. I will just repeat it one more time, MS has the software combination and experience to make it look weak, even to the simple minded consumers. I can't guarantee that they will do that but the recipe is there and I am amazed anyone can deny that. I also totally disagree that the Xbox 360 isn't the right vehicle to do it. It can offer the same things as Apple and Google plus offer even more and there is no reason for MS not to continue to pursue that. If they are not pursuing something close to what I am talking about, their heads really are too big to push back the latest competition. Q.