accident:using waybackmachine with aberdeeninc who immediately flags products when they are discontinued, I came up with jan 2004 as roughly the time the board was discontinued.. so its a 5 year old board thats been discontinued for 3 years before vista came out..I also agree, its a nice little platform for htpc usage and it does work with vista, but the sound chipset was discontinued/dropped before the nforce3 even came out. oh and its night and day difference in quality to todays sound chipsets. I think your just going ot need to get a sound card if you want to keep using the force2 and just disable the sound in the bios.. you can get a similar quality card in the bargain bins at your favorite computer store.
Do you have a link showing that this particular board was available 5 years ago and stating that it was discontinued and stopped being sold in volume in Jan 2004?
Which bargain bin sound card provides Dolby Digital Live, SPDIF output, and is supported by Vista?
Kinche:I appreciate your frustration, HT Slider. I understand there are commercial realities that make supporting "old" hardware expensive, but companies sometimes seem to define old or legacy with little rhyme or reason. Frankly, I'm pleased when a product is well-supported for more than two years. Like it or not (and I don't), the release of a new operating system is an opportunity for hardware manufacturers to reevaluate which products they'll support going forward.A cursory review of the A7N8X-E Deluxe files on the Asus support site shows the initial BIOS was posted four years ago, 9 May 2003. The most recent BIOS, which also appears to be the most recent file posted (other than manuals), was posted 19 November 2004. That doesn't bode well for ongoing support of your motherboard.Regardless, your complaint ultimately lies with nVidia. They made the audio chipset you've been using. They decided not to support it in Vista. I doubt you'll see them reverse that decision, petition or no. They likely assume that most PC enthusiasts (gamers, HTPC folks, etc.) upgrade at least every three years, which is generally my experience. It's also in nVidia's best interest (and ATi's, and HP's, and so on) to see us all buy new products at least that frequently.Given the choice between paying more for hardware that was guaranteed to be supported for five years or paying less for hardware that might last me three years, I'll chose the latter. Odds are that a new system three years down the road will be so much faster than what I have now, I will want to upgrade anyway.I think it's reasonable to have different expectations for consumer electronics. You don't want your TV or receiver to need replacement as frequently as a PC. Heck, I'd like to see Media Center Extenders last through a couple major OS versions. I don't think home theater PCs are sufficiently mature to have similar lifespans, though.
In my experience it is extremely rare (I've never seen it before) for a motherboard to not be fully functional through an operating system upgrade (even through multiple new OSs). I've been building PCs for personal use and for friends and family members for about 25 years and recently with all of us having children coming of age where a personal PC for them makes sense I've been slapped together many of the older systems I had in my basement.
Believe it or not, this is the absolutely first motherboard that I have ever come across that has a single thing not functioning with the last 3 Microsoft operating systems (98, 2000, XP). I've been installing Windows XP or Windows 2000 on all of the systems and some of them were originally running Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. I just put a system together for my sisters youngest son (5 right now) a few months ago. It is an almost 10 year old Compaq 5477 with a Celeron 500 processor and an Intel 810 chipset based motherboard with on-board sound and very primitive on-board video. As usual, Windows XP installed without a hitch, again with all on-board systems fully functional - including the on-board sound and video. I again (like the other 2 old systems I put together for my family - mentioned a few posts back) added a PCI video card (an nVidia 6200 in this case - $44 at Newegg), an $8 PCI network card and sold her an old copy of Windows XP I had for $50 Cdn. The computer again works perfectly for its intended purpose. To my surprise it is even able to play fairly advanced video games such as Need for Speed - Most Wanted well (at 640x480). It plays all of the 5 year old appropriate educational video games flawlessly also as well as plays back DVR_MS video files and DVDs flawlessly.
I don't know if Vista specifically is where this old hardware functionality ends or if its specifically an nVidia thing but not having full basic functionality with an OS upgrade is definitely a new issue for me. Right now I have a BFG6800 OC AGP video card in the basement that doesn't support WMV HD decoding with XP nor with Vista (its back in the box again and the outside of the box boasts how the GPU is the most powerful available and how it produces smooth, seamless WMV HD hardware decoding and playback) and this nVidia based motherboard that the sound won't work with Vista. For a short period of time I also owned an nVidia NVTV dual tuner card and again it is no longer supported and also won't work with Vista at all. The 4-5 year old Hauppauge PVR-250 card that I own and still use (purchased before the nVidia NVTV card was even available) is still fully supported with Vista.
I wonder if Vista supports the 810 or 440BX chipset (both close to 10 years old). If so, this is pretty clearly an nVidia issue and explains why, since I started to purchase newer nVidia based hardware, components don't function any more.
There are a number of you who are of the opinion that it doesn't matter when a product is sold in volume - that if it was available for purchase, even an older model with reduced features, the date first available should be considered to dictate the age of the product. As such, since the nForce 2 chipset first came out 5 years ago therefore it is clearly obsolete and reasonable that it is no longer supported. The fact that it was sold in high volumes and advertised as state of the art into 2005 is irrelevant.
In my case, my motherboard sold in early 2005 with BIOS version 1012 which has a date stamp of August 2004. Since 1013 was available in November 2004, my board was likely manufactured some time in between. There is nothing I'm aware of that contractually obliges nVidia to maintain drivers for their hardware through OS changes - even if it was only sold yesterday. In this situation I guess its just buyer beware and its probably best to stick with Intel chipsets for motherboards if you want the option to keep them fully functional for a while.
Personally I believe as a community we should be outraged at some of the stunts nVidia has been pulling recently. For them to have dropped support of all 6800 AGP video cards for Media Center applications (WMV decoding, h.264 decoding, etc.) is ridiculous. Especially since they were all sold advertising these capabilities and in reality it never worked at all. Now they have dumped support for the NVTV TV tuner cards and all nForce 2 Soundstorm based motherboards. These product were all sold in volume up to only 2 years ago (and yes some of them were first announced 5 years ago). Currently they're selling 7600 and 7800 AGP video cards and again boasting of the WMV, VC-1, and h.264 hardware decoding and yet again apparently it doesn't work at all.
I spent about $600 on my BFG 6800 AGP video card - specifically for WMV, VC-1, and h.264 hardware decoding, I spent about $200 on my motherboard, and I spent about $200 on the NVTV TV tuner card (that I didn't keep) a little over 2 years ago. I spent quit a bit of time over on the avsforums working out the optimal hardware for a fully functional HTPC. For my motherboard I'm more shocked than feeling legally ripped off (we did use it for 2 years and it will keep on working if I don't upgrade - plus it will likely mostly work if I do upgrade).
Why is it that the majority of you are content with this sort of product record/history?
I agree this is not a Microsoft problem; it is an nVidia problem.
Personally, after only purchasing nVidia video cards since the first TNT came out (until my latest card), I am not likely to purchase another nVidia related product for many years, if ever. I just don't feel I can trust them to live up to their advertisements, nor adequately support their products. Heck I even spec'd nVidia video cards for our entire engineering department (a large number of Quadro's - in reality they worked well though).
I just downloaded and ran nVidia's own Vista testing tool. To my surprise it says that my HTPC is fully Vista ready. It even says that the "soundcard" is fine. Here is the line from the nVidia Vista upgrade testing tool about it:
Here is what Microsoft's Upgrade Advisor says about sound (note everything else, except video, is apparently 100% supported by Vista):
NVIDIA® nForce(TM) Audio Codec Interface
NVIDIA Corporation
No action required
NVIDIA® nForce(TM) MCP Audio Processing Unit
NVIDIA® nForce(TM) Audio
There is no compatibility data available for this device. For more information, go to the device manufacturer's website or Windows Marketplace, or contact your retailer.
So, if I sit at my HTPC, download and run the Microsoft Advisor and notice the discrepancy with two different audio related messages and then go to nvidia.com and run their Vista upgrade checking tool, I'd end up (as I did) purchasing Vista Premium with the expectation that it will install perfectly.
Only after reading various web forums did I discover that many people are having issues with Vista and my motherboard, especially with no sound and the nvidia LAN not working.
BTW, my new video card was also listed with the same comments as the audio above. Here are the notes on it:
I expect that the X1950Pro is supported (at least I hope it is...).
Quick point of reference...98, 2000, XP are not 3 concurrent O/Ss. 98 & XP are home based & 2000 would be business based.
98 felt like a major improvement over 95, but was very similar code. & ME was either 98 or XP based (never used it myself) so its not a full version.
You would either need to go windows 3.11, 95/98, XP or NT40, 2000, 2003 for 3 major OS releases, IMHO.
Kinche:I am not content with the situation, HT Slider. I'm just sharing my experience, which suggests you're lucky to have not run into this issue before. You've been building PCs for 10 years longer than I have, and I have encountered a number of products that weren't well-supported by new operating systems such as Windows 98, Windows 2000 or Windows XP. I loved my Gravis Ultrasound sound card, but its useful life was less than five years. I enjoyed my Microsoft Sidewinder Game Voice, a product that was orphaned in less than three years. My Diamond Monster sound card was great back when A3D support meant something. I've had several video cards made obsolete by new games I was keen to play, including titles that lead me to buy and then retire 3Dfx cards. Like gaming rigs, home theater PCs tend to have higher-end, more cutting-edge (or at least task-specific) hardware. There are costs associated with being nearer to the cutting-edge. Products cost more, and support may be more limited than we would like.Regarding Vista, nVidia isn't the only manufacturer frustrating us Media Center fans. My ATI HDTV Wonder tuner was supported by Microsoft in Vista betas but isn't supported by AMD/ATI now that Vista is out. I've had mixed luck with both nVidia and ATI over the years, but as something of an AMD fanboy I'm rather frustrated by this turn of events.So, I'm not content that I have to buy a new tuner. I can take solace in the fact that, broken down by month, my tuner investment only cost me ~US$10/mo., but it's still frustrating. Given the money you sank into nVidia products that didn't pan out, I would certainly follow up with their customer service department; the sad truth, though, is you may not get more than an apology.
I spoke with nVidia and sent a couple of e-mails to their customer service (about the 6800, not the motherboard). Their only response was that they do not support any hardware and it is entirely the responsibility of the actual hardware manufacturer. In this case BFG for the 6800 OC. I spoke for several hours with BFG about the lack of functionality with my 6800OC and the fact that they had recommended it to me in writing for this application. When I asked in writing for a credit towards a different card or for them to RMA it and replace it with one that works they told me I should talk to nVidia (to give them credit after a lot more pressure they almost allowed me to swap it for a 6600 AGP - but then they discovered the decoding wasn't actually functional with it either, even though it was still advertised by nVidia as working (as it is still today)). It even went up to BFGs legal department when I faxed a photograph of the wording on my BFG 6800 OC box, but they came back with "not their problem - it is nVidia's" and wouldn't do anything more for me other than to suggest I should sell the hardware to recoup some of my loss. I have to agree with them though. These problems are really all to do with nVidia, not the companies that used nVidia's chips to manufacture their products. If BFG ended up refunding everyone who purchased a 6800 (or other AGP card), it could turn into a financial nightmare for them.
The motherboard, on the other hand, is quite a different situation. I don't really have a leg to stand on with them. All I can do is hope that there is enough pressure on nVidia to produce a Soundstorm driver for Vista from Microsoft (who I'm sure would benifit from additional Vista sales), motherboard manufacturers and the population in general. I'm not expecting any good news on this - other than I can probably get everything working (no guarantees though) if I purchase a new DDL supported sound card with an SPDIF output. The other thing I could hope for is Microsoft improving their upgrade advisor to more accurately reflect Vista support (since nVidia once again seems to be indicating more capability than reality if you use their Vista advisor).
If you think about it, once again everyone is finger pointing at each other and nVidia is at the center of it again. I paid $200 for Vista Premium as both Microsoft's and nVidia's upgrade advisor say my system supports Vista. Due to nVidia not actually providing drivers for it, I'm now potentially stuck with a piece of software that won't work (unless I dish out more cash for new hardware). If I talk to Microsoft, they say the issue is with nVidia, if I talk to nVidia, I'm sure they'll say its not their problem it's ASUS and Microsoft's.
Shiba3420:Quick point of reference...98, 2000, XP are not 3 concurrent O/Ss. 98 & XP are home based & 2000 would be business based. 98 felt like a major improvement over 95, but was very similar code. & ME was either 98 or XP based (never used it myself) so its not a full version. You would either need to go windows 3.11, 95/98, XP or NT40, 2000, 2003 for 3 major OS releases, IMHO.
Kinche:You're right, 98, 2000 and XP are not technically consecutive operating systems. Some of us ran Windows 2000 at home to take advantage of "NT Technology". Windows 9x was a decent gaming OS, NT 4 was not. Windows 2000 filled the gap between 9x and XP nicely for me and several of my friends.Your point that Windows 95 drivers generally worked in Windows 98 is a good one. Perhaps I should have alluded to the DOS/Windows 3.x upgrade to Windows 95. I personally had conversations with long-time computer users who were quite irate that their "perfectly good" EGA video adapters weren't supported in Win95. That's an extreme example, to be sure; perhaps the venerable Pro Audio Spectrum 16 sound card is more appropriate.Microsoft did not provide Windows 95 drivers for the PAS-16, a reasonably popular card when 95 shipped. Folks calling Media Vision support were told that a driver existed, Microsoft had it, and a simple call to MS tech support would enable users to acquire the driver. Unfortunately, Microsoft had no such driver, and responded with their clear policy that customers should rely on hardware manufacturers to provide such drivers; Media Vision was responsible for providing the driver.In short, customers were caught in the stereotypical finger-pointing stalemate of tech support. Neither party wanted to claim responsibility for a situation that rendered an installed base of hardware useless. Had one called Media Vision while considering Windows 95, one would have been told to go ahead and buy that OS upgrade and contact MS for the driver. The end result sucked then for PAS-16 owners and, though circumstances here are different, sucks now for nForce2 owners.It's unfortunate that products from Microsoft and nVidia both suggest the motherboard in question should work with Vista. I think nVidia should certainly be taken to task on that.
The various companies I worked for even went from DOS to DOS/Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98, 2000 Workstation and finally to XP Pro (did the same thing at home, except instead of XP Pro, XP Home and then MCE2005). For our CAD/FEA workstations we went from SGI (Irix) to NT3.5, NT4.0, 2000 Workstation and finally to XP Pro... Doesn't really matter though. Either way, my point was that 10 year old computers with Intel chipset based motherboards are still fully functional with XP and quite likely Vista (although not supported if problems arise) and over a significant number of previous OSs.
I actually own a Pro Audio Spectrum 16 (I'm sure its downstairs somewhere - unless I gave it to one of my children to dissect) and I do recall having issues getting a driver to work with one OS upgrade also (probably 95). If I recall correctly I did find one somewhere and used that card for several years after that.
As an experiment I'm tempted to upgrade from Media Center 2005 to Vista on my 5 year old's 10 year old Dell Optiplex and see if it's still fully functional (buy fully I mean on-board audio, LAN, video, PCI bus, memory controller, etc. - it works great with MCE2005).
accident:I think your just going ot need to get a sound card if you want to keep using the force2 and just disable the sound in the bios.. you can get a similar quality card in the bargain bins at your favorite computer store.
After watching a few movies I decided to look for a card to replace the Soundstorm audio. After about an hour looking for a "bargain bin" audio card I have not been able to find anything comparable that supports Dolby Digital Live, has Vista drivers that are currently available and is less than $125 Cdn (with tax). On top of that, all of the reviews for the cards that I have found seem to have lots of problems with the drivers not working properly.
Accident, what "bargain bin" cards are you talking about that can replace Soundstorm?
Keep in mind that Soundstorm is a high end digital solution where all 6 channels of potentially analog audio, instead of being output through a crappy analog pre-amp, are digitally converted to Dolby Digital 5.1 through the Soundstorm hardware (no analog at all in the chain) and then output digitally to your audio receiver (in my case a fairly decent, but a few years old, Yamaha RX-V2400, 5 Energy speakers and our quite functional 1200 watt SVS subwoofer). The sound quality is extremely good - always. It doesn't matter if I'm playing a video game on our 51" HDTV, watching a WMV HD video or watching a DVD (where DD5.1 or DTS is automatically passed through to the digital output port). The RX-V2400 also provides full room acoustic compensation, where each speaker is separately eq'd and phase adjusted (you plug in microphones to the amp, place them where your ears will be and let it run through the optimization - and then finally tweak the output a little more if you like using an SPL meter) - but it can only perform the room compensation on digital inputs. If I play an audio test CD through Media Center with my current system, the response is better than +/-3dB from 10Hz to well over 18kHz. This is with the 2 CD audio channels output as DD5.1. You won't get that with an analog card (for true audiofiles, encoding 2 channel CD content to DD5.1 would be considered unacceptable (lossy), but our primary use is for TV, DVDs, and other multi audio channel video formats plus the sound is extremely good encoded to DD5.1 anyway; if I want Soundstorm can also be used in 2 channel PCM mode where the digital CD audio is passed (after the software mixer...) to the amp).
So for me, having Dolby Digital Live is a necessity. Any other solution (other than an extremely high end analog card, using analog outputs always and using a software Dolby Digital decoder) requires manually switching between 6 channel analog and pass through digital output and still compromises the audio quality for everything except for DD5.1 and DTS pass through.
Anyway, the cards I've found so far are the:
- Turtle Beach Montego (no Vista driver yet and speaking with tech support, nothing in the next few months either) : http://support.turtlebeach.com/site/kb_ftp/588219342.asp
- AuzenTech XPlosion 7.1 (no driver available yet - can use X Mystique driver; reading on-line reviews there currently seems to be some serious problems with this card and Vista drivers though) - $125
- AuzenTech XMYSTIQUE7.1 (Vista driver just released, issues with driver) - card isn't available locally nor through Cdn mail order
- Auzentech X-Meridian 7.1 (driver has issues many issues with Vista, including won't encode 2 channel audio properly - noted in readme file) - $225
Am I missing something? Are there any Soundstorm equivalent (Dolby Digital Live or DTS connect) cards available that currently work with Vista?
This "upgrade" to Vista isn't going well.
I've tried twice now and it keeps coming up with:
"IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL
If this is the first time you've seen this stop error....
....
* STOP: 0x0000000A (0x9A9CB89E, 0x00000007, 0x00000000, 0x81084206)"
This happens during the first reboot and the next reboot ends up being a "Vista Rollback".
This then pops up with:
"The upgrade was not successful. Your previous version of Windows is being restored.
Do not restart your computer during this time."
The upgrade advisor and the upgrade checks during the actual upgrade both state that my system is ready to install Vista, with the only issue being the midi port and game controller possibly not working properly.
I'm now trying to uninstall all drivers (I installed all virtual drivers last time - this time all). I have also uninstalled all MCE add-ons, system utilities, Nero, etc.
I guess the next step would be to physically take parts of the machine apart and keep trying a Vista upgrade.
Do you think I would have better luck with a fresh install?