DavidinCTAndy, Isn't that a motherboard ? How about a card ? Already invested too much to dump it....
Andy,
Isn't that a motherboard ? How about a card ? Already invested too much to dump it....
G45 is an IGP (so yeah, you'd need to replace the board). It can be quirky with some players but BD PQ is better than anything I've compared it against. Ian's levels sample is perfect OOTB, no tweaking or reg hacks required.
First of all, thanks for this thread, it's really helping me to understand what's wrong with the TV color quality. I've read most of the 18 pages and haven't find a solution to my issue yet.
I have an ATI HD 8000 serie card connected to an "old" 720p HDTV with a DVI cable.
If I run WMC under a fesh install of windows (7 or vista), with no ATI driver installed (bascially, i'm using the "windows update" ATI whql driver), live TV color quality is simply perfect for both SD and HD!
Unfortunately, when I install ATI Catalyst driver (any 9.x vesion), I get the incorrect color level issue for SD live TV under WMC.
Here my questions: Is my issue same as most people using an ATI card here? If windows default setting give a correct color quality, why this setting can't be apply with the ATI Catalyst driver? What is the correct workarround for my setup?
Thanks for your help.
The drivers from Windows Update are actually Catalyst 9.x, just without the Catalyst Control Center. I think they just released either 9.7 or 9.8 drivers through Windows Update as well, at least for Windows 7. You would think that the WU drivers would behave generally the same as defaulted ones from the ATI installer. The ATI software might be picking up on something and using a different set of defaults than the drivers do on their own, I suppose. The main thing I would consider here would be Pixel Format, but that's only available over HDMI, not DVI or VGA. DVI/VGA is *always* output at "Full RGB". (You aren't using a DVI->HDMI adapter, right? Just a straight DVI->DVI cable?)
Can you give a more precise meaning for "incorrect color issue under SD"? Do you mean the picture is washed out looking ... as in blacks are grey, or are the colors themselves wacky.
Best I can guess right now would be to try the old UseBT601CSC registry tweak to the ATI drivers. If it still works for your card (won't hurt anything if it doesn't), it might be the fix you're looking for.
What are you using as a reference for black levels, both for SD and HD? Can you post a couple photos of what you see for us?
edit: So you don't have to go searching for that change ..
>> Open Registry Editor>> Navigate to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video>> You'll see a bunch of subkeys in GUID format >> Open each one until you find the one with both 0000 and 0001 subkeys that are further expandable>> Open the 0000 key>> Open the UMD key then the DXVA key>> In the right-hand pane, right-click and choose New>String Value>> Name the Value UseBT601CSC and then set it to 1
This registry setting has no effect on my system at all, but it might still function on yours :) You never know!
Hello djp952,
Thanks for your answer:
djp952 The drivers from Windows Update are actually Catalyst 9.x, just without the Catalyst Control Center. I think they just released either 9.7 or 9.8 drivers through Windows Update as well, at least for Windows 7. You would think that the WU drivers would behave generally the same as defaulted ones from the ATI installer. The ATI software might be picking up on something and using a different set of defaults than the drivers do on their own, I suppose. The main thing I would consider here would be Pixel Format, but that's only available over HDMI, not DVI or VGA. DVI/VGA is *always* output at "Full RGB". (You aren't using a DVI->HDMI adapter, right? Just a straight DVI->DVI cable?)
Correct, no adapter
djp952 Can you give a more precise meaning for "incorrect color issue under SD"? Do you mean the picture is washed out looking ... as in blacks are grey, or are the colors themselves wacky.
Correct again, black are grey, etc. Sounds to be the same issue as everyone describe here.
djp952 Best I can guess right now would be to try the old UseBT601CSC registry tweak to the ATI drivers. If it still works for your card (won't hurt anything if it doesn't), it might be the fix you're looking for.
Actually, I already tried this registry tweak with no success. Did it again tonight, no effect.
djp952 What are you using as a reference for black levels, both for SD and HD? Can you post a couple photos of what you see for us?
I don't really use references for black levels. All I can say is that black color looks "black" with all my applications (wmp, vlc, powerdvd, etc.) but it looks grey with WMC for SD.
djp952 edit: So you don't have to go searching for that change .. >> Open Registry Editor>> Navigate to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video>> You'll see a bunch of subkeys in GUID format >> Open each one until you find the one with both 0000 and 0001 subkeys that are further expandable>> Open the 0000 key>> Open the UMD key then the DXVA key>> In the right-hand pane, right-click and choose New>String Value>> Name the Value UseBT601CSC and then set it to 1 This registry setting has no effect on my system at all, but it might still function on yours :) You never know!
Thanks again for this tutorial.
Maybe I should try to install CCC without the whole ATI driver package. Do somebody know if it is possible?
Well, I'm not sure this is yet resolved with Windows 7.
The last time I got everything working correctly was under VMC, using the UseBT601CSC and nominalrange=1 reg hacks, with ATI HDMI dongle, RGB limited setting and 9.3 catalyst drivers.
I have since never got back to this nirvana.
I am now using an Nvidia 9400GT with HDMI, and I can't get everything working right at the same time. I am currently using NominalRange set to 1 to use 0-255 in media center, and getting the nvidia driver to compress to 16-235 in the nvidia control panel. This looks fine for everything but my SD analog TV from my STBs. They have ultra whites. I'm not sure if they are actually crushed, but you almost need sunglasses to watch.
Anyone solved the Black level issues with Nvidia on Windows 7?
Hey guys, I'm using a GT230M and the latest drivers off Nvidia's website. I hook into my monitor via HDMI. The GPU is sending 16-235, but my monitor requires 0-255. I know there are a couple options in the Nvidia Control Panel, but the "Video Color Settings" of Full/Limited only seems to apply to video sources (Media Center, etc?), not general windows desktop apps. The "Desktop Color Settings" does function, but it only has 1 RGB setting (which is Limited, unlabeled) and YCbCr444 (which seems to be outputting some variation of Full levels). What I am unclear on is what exactly YCbCr444 is actually for, and why it's not labeled RGB Full. I'm assuming it's not actually the correct setting I should be using and have no idea what exactly it's doing with my levels. How should I fix this? Thanks for any assistance.
Orta Hey guys, I'm using a GT230M and the latest drivers off Nvidia's website. I hook into my monitor via HDMI. The GPU is sending 16-235, but my monitor requires 0-255. I know there are a couple options in the Nvidia Control Panel, but the "Video Color Settings" of Full/Limited only seems to apply to video sources (Media Center, etc?), not general windows desktop apps. The "Desktop Color Settings" does function, but it only has 1 RGB setting (which is Limited, unlabeled) and YCbCr444 (which seems to be outputting some variation of Full levels). What I am unclear on is what exactly YCbCr444 is actually for, and why it's not labeled RGB Full. I'm assuming it's not actually the correct setting I should be using and have no idea what exactly it's doing with my levels. How should I fix this? Thanks for any assistance.
I think you are on the right track with using the Video Settings -> RGB Full option. I am using a LCD TV, with this option set to RGB limited, this results in compression to 16-235 for everything, not just video. Therefore I have media center using nominal range =1 so the only compression is at the last step before the picture is sent to the TV. I would wonder if your monitor is expanding the hdmi signal to 0-255 automatically, seeing as HDMI conforms to bt709. If this is the case then you might be getting everything expanded twice.
gb_wellyI think you are on the right track with using the Video Settings -> RGB Full option. I am using a LCD TV, with this option set to RGB limited, this results in compression to 16-235 for everything, not just video. Therefore I have media center using nominal range =1 so the only compression is at the last step before the picture is sent to the TV. I would wonder if your monitor is expanding the hdmi signal to 0-255 automatically, seeing as HDMI conforms to bt709. If this is the case then you might be getting everything expanded twice.
Yes, my monitor (Samsung 32A550) has a "PC Mode" that forces HDMI into Full range. The setting is locked while under this mode (Samsung calls it "HDMI Black Level"), and I can't change it to Limited range. I have to use the "PC Mode" because it significantly reduces image processing, the input lag is very noticeable in standard modes. I also believe it's the only mode that has text smoothing. Nvidia's "Video Color Settings" have no effect on general desktop apps, black-level/brightness is obviously horribly over blown. "Desktop Color Setting" YCbCr444 is the only setting that seems to correct levels, but I suspect this probably isn't actually the correct setting.
There is no option to go back to full range, how I wish there were.
YCrCb 4:4:4 is a different way to encode the Data where Y is the luminance and Cr is the red and Cb is the blue. Many video processors work in this mode.
You're only option for getting full range video is to hack the EDID for your monitor so the video driver see's your monitor as a DVI device that does not have audio.
You could try replacing your HDMI cable with a DVI-HDMI adaptor cable. That way the PC should always send 0-255. Because you are saying black/white levels are overblown, sounds like the opposite problem (eg crushed blacks/whites) When I have seen this it's been sending 0-255 to a TV using 16-235. If you are sending 16-235 to a monitor doing 0-255 you should get a washed out dull gray appearance.
Reading over in AVS forums the Samsung settings are confusing, might be worth double checking it's doing what it claims to be doing.
H i Gang,
I wish I could be posting solutions or hacks to resolve the continuing, absolutely ridiculous issues with getting Media Center PCs to output correct grey levels, but instead I'm going to vent. Hopefully someone from Microsoft will one day take Media Center seriously and write a spec for ATI and Nvidia to adhere to as a part of WHQL certification that will once and for all resolve these issues.
Right now my family and I are down in Florida on vacation. Since ALL of our video entertainment is through Media Center we brought with us a new HP Media Center laptop, complete with on-board Nvidia HD video processing, native HDMI output, a slick Media Center remote that pops out of the side, and well integrated Blueray support (integrated with Media Center using HP's custom integration software).
You would "think" by now it would simply be a matter of plugging the laptop into the 40" Samsung HDTV that is here using an HDMI cable and plugging the cable source into the Hauppauge USB PVR2 that we use and we would be watching everything with fully compliant colors and grey levels. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Instead, all of the cable recordings (SD unfortunately) play with saturated whites and black greys. I tried updating the video drivers and playing with settings and grey levels did improve for Bluray and HD recording we brought with us, but grey levels are still totally wrong for the SD recordings. If I plug the cable source directly into the TV of course the image quality is perfect (as perfect as SD gets anyway) so the problem is not the video source.
After Media Center being around for close to 10 years, I find the inability to produce compliant grey levels absolutely astonishing. How can Microsoft fail so miserably with this relatively simple and absolutely essential requirement? Sure I've heard people state it is difficult to get all of the hardware, software and drivers to all properly work together since there is more than one company involved but at worst that should mean it may take a few more weeks or months to get the specifications properly ironed out and to make sure each party knows what grey levels will be used where and at which point in the video chain any colorspace/grey level conversions take place. To still have this problem and to have it affect almost every Media Center installation is mind boggling. As I've said before it is almost as if Microsoft wants Media Center to fail so they deliberately ensure there are major fundamental issues. Even the least technically inclined consumer will at least be "subliminally" negatively influenced by the poor image quality Media Center produces. The consumer is forced to hack EDID's, hack the registry or even (if we were lucky) having to use custom settings to get compliant grey levels. This is a great way to ensure Media Center doesn't become popular with the average "Joe" consumer. By now consumers expect most computer and video "stuff" to be simply plug and play.
Will Microsoft ever get serious about making Media Center produce compliant video output?
gb_wellyYou could try replacing your HDMI cable with a DVI-HDMI adaptor cable. That way the PC should always send 0-255. Because you are saying black/white levels are overblown, sounds like the opposite problem (eg crushed blacks/whites) When I have seen this it's been sending 0-255 to a TV using 16-235. If you are sending 16-235 to a monitor doing 0-255 you should get a washed out dull gray appearance. Reading over in AVS forums the Samsung settings are confusing, might be worth double checking it's doing what it claims to be doing.
Yea, by overblown, I meant the blacks are blown out towards gray. I was also referencing the "Brightness" setting on the TV (shadow detail/black level adjustment), not whites. As you say, the image is washed out, dull, and blacks are very gray. Appreciate the idea, but I just switched out to VGA. I thought native PC levels were always 0-255, so I don't see how this option can't exist. Is this an oversight on somebody's part?
well being that this has been a known issue for the last 2 years and the community in general has been begging for a switch in the driver.
It's not an oversight, just dumb stubborness and/or ignorance.
Old thread here..
Does anyone know if the keys mentioned earlier work on Win7? I tried last night and didnt notice a difference, but maybe it was too subtile for me to see without using a calibration video. Im still seeing media center video looking like it has a white haze over it.
Things have got a bit better lately with Windows 7 and video card drivers.
If you are using DVI-DVI cable media center should just work.
If you are using HDMI-HDMI cable the 'nominal range' registry key and setting 'RGB limited' in your graphics card control panel should work.
If you are using DVI-HDMI adaptor cable media center will work, but the windows desktop blacks will be crushed. In this senario Nvidia control panel will still offer 'RGB limited' in which case you can enable it and use 'nominal range' registry key. On ATI, the 'RGB limited' option will witheld from you however.
I think.
If you have come from a previously calibrated Vista install, I would recommend resetting your TV settings. I am using native HDMI and things worked perfectly once I reset the TV to factory defaults (plus nominal range, RGB limited settings)