This is one of my hates on Media Center and even with more tuners it keeps doing it.

When recording 2 shows back-to-back on the same channel, Media Center only uses 1 tuner for it. So, what happens is it will record my 5 min before on the 1st show, then on the 2nd show, it starts 5 min in (I have it set to record 5 before and 5 after due to cut offs in the past). My wife's show records 1st, My show records 2nd, if I don't watch the show before her and she deletes it, I miss 5-7 min of my show. If I watch before her, I have to play her show, and FF to the end to see the start of my show.

I have 3 QAM tuners, these shows are scheduled to record on 1 channel. Still, even though I have 3 tuners, no others in use, it will only use 1 tuner to record on that channel when NO ONE IS WATCHING LIVE TV.

So, 3 tuners, 1 in use, Media Center can not use the 2nd or 3rd tuner to record the second show to honor the pre and post recording settings ?

Is there a way to FORCE Media Center to use more than one tuner to record a single channel ?

I was thinking about putting in a 4th QAM tuner but, I don't think it will resolve this issue.....Anyone ?

Hi Dave

I dont think adding a fourth tuner will help - I have 4 in mine (on UK Freeview DVB-T) and have the exact same problem as you... so I am recording 2 programmes - back to back - and it does exactly what you are describing AND there are 3 tuners free doing absolutely squat.  I remember posting about this months ago (it wasnt a particularly constructive post but I was/am so fed up with how poor MC handles basic functionality) and I just said something along the lines of Windows 7 tuner management (still) sucks!  And it really is nothing short of a joke!!

Rich

 It can be done, I think. You need to split your channels, like this:

 In the guide, rt-click the channel the problem shows are on
 and choose "Edit Channel"

Choose "Edit Sources"

Choose "Split"

This will create duplicates of the channel, one for each tuner you have. Then choose "Rename." I'll use my local NBC affiliate, WYFF, as an example. Rename it to "WYFF 2"

Now click "Save." This should put you back in the Guide, where you should see 2 (or more, depending on the number of tuners) channels with the same number, but if you move the pointer over them you will see that one is "WYFF" and the other is "WYFF 2". Now go to "Recorded TV / View Scheduled," click "Series," choose your show, click "Series Settings" and under "Channels" hit the +- buttons and you should see 2 (or more) copies of the channel you edited. Pick one, then do the same for the other series, picking the other channel. It's tedious, but once you set it up it should work.

On an unrelated topic, I wish I could force 7MC to record in DVR-MS format instead of WTV, since ShowAnalyzer works much better with that format, as of now. Given that Win7 has WTV-to-DVRMS converting built-in, I'd think it should be do-able "on the fly" but that's a bit over my head. 

spockers

 It can be done, I think. You need to split your channels, like this:

 In the guide, rt-click the channel the problem shows are on
 and choose "Edit Channel"

Choose "Edit Sources"

Choose "Split"

This will create duplicates of the channel, one for each tuner you have. Then choose "Rename." I'll use my local NBC affiliate, WYFF, as an example. Rename it to "WYFF 2"

Now click "Save." This should put you back in the Guide, where you should see 2 (or more, depending on the number of tuners) channels with the same number, but if you move the pointer over them you will see that one is "WYFF" and the other is "WYFF 2". Now go to "Recorded TV / View Scheduled," click "Series," choose your show, click "Series Settings" and under "Channels" hit the +- buttons and you should see 2 (or more) copies of the channel you edited. Pick one, then do the same for the other series, picking the other channel. It's tedious, but once you set it up it should work.

On an unrelated topic, I wish I could force 7MC to record in DVR-MS format instead of WTV, since ShowAnalyzer works much better with that format, as of now. Given that Win7 has WTV-to-DVRMS converting built-in, I'd think it should be do-able "on the fly" but that's a bit over my head. 

I'm sure this works, but it's a shame that hacking the crap out of your Guide is the only way to accomplish this. Maybe we'll get this fixed in Win 8. Maybe not.

millerbrad

Maybe we'll get this fixed in Win 8.

Bite your tongue!

We want this fixed in the next rollup, not 3 years from now!  We've lived with this through XP, Vista, and now Win 7.  I, myself, am fed up.

dmagerl

millerbrad

Maybe we'll get this fixed in Win 8.

Bite your tongue!

We want this fixed in the next rollup, not 3 years from now!  We've lived with this through XP, Vista, and now Win 7.  I, myself, am fed up.

I agree, a very, very annoying thing. I know how they can fix it and maybe if they add some new LONG TIME REQUESTED features in Win8 maybe it would be fixed.

The real fix is to SHARE the buffer. Use one tuner and share the recording between 2 shows to be able to honor pre and post recording settings in each recording. This could only happen if they provide buffer recording (like hit record in the middle of a show and record from the start if it's in your buffer) and it would give the flexablity like this. Something we have been dreaming about for years.

Don't expect it in the next rollup though, as I understand it's a whole new system they need to have to use to do this, as I believe the basics how MC records is almost the same as it was in MCE 2005, just updated for a new format and new codecs.

Right now, I would love a little registy fix that would force MC to use another tuner for back-to-back recordings and only use the same tuner if all other tuners were in use....Something to fix this problem once and for all.....

Microsoft, are you listening ??? Please help !!!!!!!!

DavidinCT

Is there a way to FORCE Media Center to use more than one tuner to record a single channel ?

Yes, there is a way that you can do what you want (at least in Vista, which is the only version  of MC that I have used).

From the main Media Centre panel, go to: Settings/TV/Recorder/Recording Defaults. Here you can set pre-padding ("Start when possible") and post-padding ("Stop when possible"). But these are volatile, and MC discards the pre-padding and/or post-padding if it needs to in order to record all of the requested programmes. The criticism of this behaviour is that MC also discards pre-padding and/or post-padding when it doesn't need to, i.e. when there are enough tuners available to record all programmes with padding intact. However, you can in fact force MC to use separate tuners...

From the Programme Guide, select the programme to record, and then "Advanced Record", and set the "Stop" time to "5 minutes after". This tells MC that meaningful programme content extends beyond the stop time shown in the EPG. Because it is meaningful content, MC will not discard it. This forces MC to use separate tuners, if enough are available.

Example: you specify 1 minute of pre-padding, and 4 minutes of post-padding. You schedule to record consecutive programmes (on the same channel or on different channels), from 8.00-9.00 and 9.00-10.00, and you have two tuners. MC could use both tuners, in which case the eventual recordings would be 7.59-9.04 and 8.59-10.04. However, MC actually uses only one tuner, so the eventual recordings are 7.59-9.00 and 9.00-10.04. The first programme has lost its post-padding, and the second programme has lost its pre-padding.

To avoid this behaviour, you define 5 minutes of programme extension using the "Stop" time on "Advanced Record". The meaningful content of each programme is now 8.00-9.05 and 9.00-10.05. The programmes overlap and so MC is forced to use two tuners. Logically, each recording should also have pre-padding and post-padding, but in fact if you define programme extension, the post-padding is dropped. This is no big deal, but it does represent a logical inconsistency in MC's behaviour.

I am one of those people who gets irritated by missing starts or ends of programmes, so I use 5 minutes of programme extension for EVERY programme that I record (combined with 1 minute of pre-padding). Because this significantly ups my tuner requirement, I have seven(!) DVB-T tuners in my system. If you have only one or two tuners, you will need to be more careful in your use of programme extension. But if you have used programme extension injudiciously, it is easy to check -- simply look at the recording schedule and verify that the start time shown for each recording is the start time shown in the EPG. If MC has to delay the start of programmes due to programme extension and insufficient tuners, the recording schedule will show the delayed start time, and not the scheduled start time.

By the way, you might think that MC should warn you of "insufficient tuners" if programme extension increases the tuner requirement beyond the tuners available. My experience suggests that MC uses the start and stop times shown in the EPG when deciding whether to warn you of insufficient tuners, and does not take into account any programme extension defined for the recordings. In my view this is a mistake in the design -- when checking for insufficient tuners, MC should take into account any programme extension you have defined.

-- from CyberSimian in the UK

CyberSimian

From the Programme Guide, select the programme to record, and then "Advanced Record", and set the "Stop" time to "5 minutes after". This tells MC that meaningful programme content extends beyond the stop time shown in the EPG. Because it is meaningful content, MC will not discard it. This forces MC to use separate tuners, if enough are available.

I gave this a try on Windows 7 x64 RTM. It didn't work. I had to go to another recording to watch the first 5 minutes of Fringe.

All of my shows have 3 minutes pre-padding; and I changed the "Stop" time to "5 minutes after", like you instructed.


8pm-9pm Hour
7:57:02 to 9:05:00pm: Survivor recorded on HDHR0(ClearQAM)
7:57:01 to 9:05:01pm: Bones recorded on HDHR1(ClearQAM)
7:57:03 to 9:05:04pm: FlashForward recorded on ATI DCT(ClearQAM)
- AVerMedia M780(ATSC) tuner idle
- ATI 650(ATSC) tuner idle

9pm-10pm Hour
8:57:01 to 9:35:02: The Office recorded on AVerMedia M780(ATSC)
9:05:06 to 10:05:00: Fringe recorded on HDHR0(ClearQAM) [same channel HDHR1 used during previous hour]
- ATI 650(ATSC) tuner idle!!!!!
- HDHR1(ClearQAM) idle after 9:05:01pm
- ATI DCT(ClearQAM) idle after 9:05:04pm

Fringe is also available on ATSC for me, so ideally, it should have recorded the entire show using my ATI 650 tuner.

CyberSimian

DavidinCT

Is there a way to FORCE Media Center to use more than one tuner to record a single channel ?

Yes, there is a way that you can do what you want (at least in Vista, which is the only version  of MC that I have used).

...snip...

I know exactly what your saying, I even went into each seres and set it to record 5 min over, not if possable. I did that a few weeks before posting this. So, as the last person, it does not work, at least in Windows 7.

The problem is still there, to create a work-around, is not the fix, this needs to be adressed by Microsoft. This will happen with everyone, it needs to be adressed.

Smarter tuning would make Media Center know there is free tuners, to honor all the record settings for the next show and that it could not fully complete it with a single tuner. At this point knowing that it can not complete the recording with pre/post settings, it should automaticly jump to a second tuner, if none is available, then do the default like it does now.

Smarter use for tuners is a little better with Windows 7 but, it's still got a long way to go and this is becoming a big one, I see this issue at least 2-3 times a week, so it's really annoying to me and my wife.

DavidinCT

Smarter tuning would make Media Center know there is free tuners, to honor all the record settings for the next show and that it could not fully complete it with a single tuner. At this point knowing that it can not complete the recording with pre/post settings, it should automaticly jump to a second tuner, if none is available, then do the default like it does now.

Are there any valid scenarios in which MC would need to simultaneously devote two tuners to recording the same channel? If not, I can understand why they don't do that. It would be pretty bad if it were doing that and had to reassign one of the tuners because you want to change channels or something. It seems to me the only valid approach is akin to inserting a "tee" command between the stream and consumers of that stream.

 

tims029334

Are there any valid scenarios in which MC would need to simultaneously devote two tuners to recording the same channel? If not, I can understand why they don't do that. It would be pretty bad if it were doing that and had to reassign one of the tuners because you want to change channels or something. It seems to me the only valid approach is akin to inserting a "tee" command between the stream and consumers of that stream.

Valid scenarios ? What about the problem discussed here ?

1. The time servers(I have tried a few) and TV time is different, NBC for example is 3-4 min (behind, just the example that pops in my head) off from actual TV time, so I have no choice to set shows to record 5 min after. It happend to shows my wife and I watch and it was a battle at one point, not worth changing back and take a chance of losing the end of a show.

2. Shows scheduled on one channel, One starting at 8pm to 9pm, the next show is scheduled from 9pm to 10pm, The settings for all shows is to record 5 min before and 5 min after. The 5 min before is only a "If possable", there is no way to change this, the 5 min after can be set for each show.

So, what happens is, the first show records, it will honor the 5 min before and 5 min after, so the second show gets cut into by 5 min and will record 5 min after.

If I disable the "5 min after" and set it to "if possable" it will end the first show at 9 and cut off the end. So, show 1 would record from 7:55 to 9 and show 2 would record from 9 to 10:05.

So, you see, using a 2nd tuner to record on one channel would resolve this problem only on back-to-back recordings, OR sharing the buffer between recordings to honor the pre/post settings would also resolve it but, we know that is not possable right now.

ehome team, if you reading, could you provide some input here ?

DavidinCT

Valid scenarios ? What about the problem discussed here ?

 

Not a valid scenario, and I gave a reason why in my original post, as well as what I think is the correct way to handle this. As a software developer, I wouldn't want to try to come up with complicated, bizarre logic to handle a problem that doesn't exist if recording is approached in the right way, especially logic that introduces problems by potentially occupying all tuners unnecessarily. Even if MC rules out conflicts in the current set of scheduled recordings, the user can come along and blow it away by changing channels or recording yet another program. It would be ridiculous to present the "All tuners in use" dialog at this point, and recovering from this automatically implies still more complicated logic to deal with a situation that exists only because the developers didn't design things right in the first place. MC is enough of a house of cards as it is.

 

tims029334

DavidinCT

Valid scenarios ? What about the problem discussed here ?

 

Not a valid scenario, and I gave a reason why in my original post, as well as what I think is the correct way to handle this. As a software developer, I wouldn't want to try to come up with complicated, bizarre logic to handle a problem that doesn't exist if recording is approached in the right way, especially logic that introduces problems by potentially occupying all tuners unnecessarily. Even if MC rules out conflicts in the current set of scheduled recordings, the user can come along and blow it away by changing channels or recording yet another program. It would be ridiculous to present the "All tuners in use" dialog at this point, and recovering from this automatically implies still more complicated logic to deal with a situation that exists only because the developers didn't design things right in the first place. MC is enough of a house of cards as it is.

 

DavidinCT's logic doesn't seem bizarre to me. If a tuner is free, use it.

Your logic, taken in the most literal sense, would dictate that single-tuner systems shouldn't be allowed to watch Live TV, because it might interfere with a scheduled recording.

I'm sure someone at MSFT is probably proud of the current logic; maybe even for the tuner-saving reasons you specifically cite. Unfortunately, this logic has demonstrated time and time again that it causes fractured recordings, with portions of one show cropped-off and included in another show.

EDIT: Comment made out of frustration removed....

millerbrad

DavidinCT's logic doesn't seem bizarre to me. If a tuner is free, use it.

Your logic, taken in the most literal sense, would dictate that single-tuner systems shouldn't be allowed to watch Live TV, because it might interfere with a scheduled recording.

I'm sure someone at MSFT is probably proud of the current logic; maybe even for the tuner-saving reasons you specifically cite. Unfortunately, this logic has demonstrated time and time again that it causes fractured recordings, with portions of one show cropped-off and included in another show.

EDIT: Comment made out of frustration removed....

 

That you think I'm defending the current state of affairs indicates you haven't understood what I'm talking about. AAMOF, this shortcoming ticks me off every Thursday night, because a piece of "The Office" ends up at the beginning of "30 Rock", and while I watch "30 Rock" in a timely fashion and delete it, I may not get around to watching "The Office" for quite some time. Further evidence you haven't understood is apparent from your comment about Live TV. If you have a single tuner, and it's occupied with a scheduled recording, and you want to watch Live TV, that's an unavoidable conflict. What DavidinCT is asking for will result in spurious conflicts that a proper solution I briefly described will avoid. I don't believe the proper solution would be any more complicated to implement, and I've already talked about some of the complications inherent to assigning multiple tuners to record the same channel.

My "Comment made out of frustration" (which I won't remove) would be to ask you to review my prior posts and if necessary, ask specific questions about what I said.

tims029334

DavidinCT

Valid scenarios ? What about the problem discussed here ?

 

Not a valid scenario, and I gave a reason why in my original post, as well as what I think is the correct way to handle this. As a software developer, I wouldn't want to try to come up with complicated, bizarre logic to handle a problem that doesn't exist if recording is approached in the right way, especially logic that introduces problems by potentially occupying all tuners unnecessarily. Even if MC rules out conflicts in the current set of scheduled recordings, the user can come along and blow it away by changing channels or recording yet another program. It would be ridiculous to present the "All tuners in use" dialog at this point, and recovering from this automatically implies still more complicated logic to deal with a situation that exists only because the developers didn't design things right in the first place. MC is enough of a house of cards as it is.

 

I do see your point but, What I am saying is there is a few tuners in the system, nothing else recording at the time, I respect the fact to have 1 tuner free for live TV (and agree with it). This is not the case, 3 tuners, 2 back-to-back shows scheduled record on one channel, not watching live tv (nothing else scheduled to record in the next few hours). So, during this process of recording these 2 shows (for this example), there is 2 tuners sitting there doing nothing when they can and should be used.

How many tuners would it take to see your end of it ? Do I need 4-5 of one type of tuners just to make sure Media Center honors my Pre/post 5 min window on 2 shows recording back-to-back on one channel(basic recording logic) ? From what I have read, putting in a 4th tuner would not resolve this problem, so, there is no really a point when there would still be 3 tuners free, just sitting doing nothing.

I think of Media Center of a high end DVR with tons of extras, a lot of people and I use them as dedicated Home theater PCs and primary DVRs. Over the years I have invested a lot of money into this, if it can not fully complete a scheduled recording, then what is the point ?

I did not bring up this subject to get in a battle with programmers about programming logic. It's more of how it works and if there a modification (let it be a registry fix or something) to be able to use another tuner for back to back recordings to resolve this problem that has plauged every version of media center so far, once and for all....