I can't imagine it is. There are multitudes of just the DVD IR receiver alone, depending on which zone it is for - meaning that there is crypto gunk in the receiver for DVD already - so it would be a logical place to put it for the extender too. But I'm not about to crack mine open to find out (since it can't be readily reassembled). Given that the extender kit shipped later, it could just be a different part number - but it wouldn't really make sense to do that unless there was a HW reason - it would needlessly increase their COGS.
My point is this - extenders work via the use of a thin client with logic for presenting an encrypted video stream overlayed on top of it. The DVR-MS file is encrypted from the MCE to the MCX. The MCE UI all happens on the MCE side - not on the client. Video is sent by the MCE shell to the MCX client in an encrypted stream. It's not simply a matter of allowing it to more than one client, then - it's a matter of every client that is trying to a) log in "as an extender" and b) connect to the video stream be able to decrypt it.
IMHO, there is an important intellectual difference between the reverse engineering one would have to do for this (reverse engineering DRM specific protection in hardware and software) and the XBMC project which - at best - liberates one's own hardware to do what you want with it. Most importantly, it doesn't allow you to pirate Xbox games or violate the MPEG group's IP. Frankly, I don't know if Microsoft would fight it - but since there is DRM at play here, which was specifically designed to protect A/V content, one would think they wouldn't just leave it alone if someone reversed it. While they have let the XBMC project alone - they have not sat by while people/organizations pirated (or distributed pirated) Xbox games.
All this said... It's just software. I am certain that it would be possible to build a softsled implementation. It's just a question of whomever does it understanding both the plumbing in play (hardware and software) in current extenders and being able to reverse it. And being willing to bear in mind any potential repercussions of doing it.
I'm new to this forum, but I've been looking for a softsled solution for some time, did a google, and found y;all. I have come up with, what I think, is at least a workable option we could use today. Bit kludgy, but can be done with off the shelf techs and a little programming (which I can do if I could get some help in areas I don't know a lot about.) More on that in a minute, here is the basic idea first:
The old xboxs (non-360s) are inexpensive now and the media center extender for xbox kit is a little over $30. I bought the xbox and extender, and also put in a Video Capture card in my non-MCE PC. While this is pretty lame, I am, at least, watching my Media Center from my other PC. Granted, this is obviously not ideal, because while I can watch the xbox media extender in a little window, one still needs to manipulate the remote control (which is silly given I have a perfectly good keyboard in front of me.) But, I could create the illusion and usability of softsled. All I'd need is to program an IR blaster with MCE remote codes and:
1) write a simple winforms client that hooks into the video capture card and displays the video (sucks, but you'll need to put in a vidcap card and get a media extender or xbox with medie extender and connect it to the PC to complete this part)
2) write software in this winforms client to drive the IR blaster so you can change channel, access guide data, etc.
1 and 2 are academic to pull off. My problem is, I don't know what third party video control I can use on a winform...there are a number of commerical programs you can "watch" your VideoCapture card connected to the MCE through (I use a silly Video Editing/capture program now to view the xbox connected to my PC through the videocapture card [MSFT, why do you make me do this]). But I haven't found out who produces a control or SDK I can use to write a video/audop client app that interfaces with a video capture card. If anyone can direct me to such an SDK, I can write one, no problem. Everything I've tried so far is a dry well...plenty of controls out there that let you watch an MPEG, DivX or whatever, but can't find anything that let's me just grab streaming video/audio from a capture card.
Now, in the case of 2 (the IR Blaster), I can program C++, C# or what have you for serial communications, but I'd need someone to point me to an IR Blaster that connects to a serial or USB port, and an SDK that would let me replicate or broadcast MCE codes. I other words, I need to write an IR blaster for MCE.
So, net net, assuming someone can point me to 1) a control or SDK that can help me write a client app the connects to a video capture card and 2) a way to program an ir blaster with MCE codes and fire them from a PC, I can at least produce the illusion of softsled. Sure, you'll have an ugly old xbox tucked away in a drawer cozying up to the business end of an ir blaster with cables connected to your PC, but that's something you can forget that is there for the most part. Keep the drawer closed. And with a nice .NET winforms client controlling the IR blaster and channeling the video, we can program a great softself-like experience that can exceed a traditional remote in ease of use.
No DRM is violated, and we can do it with off-the-shelf, perfectly legal technologies. I just need some guidance in the Video space since this is not where I normally write software.
Any thoughts? Any help? Not that I expect sypathy, but I have a 30inch apple cinema display in my office that I'd really like to use with my media center while I am working. Seems ridiculous to me to have to bring a TV in my office.
The thing I am looking for and I think many others are, is to be able to have a MCE session within a window on your PC so that while you are working, you have your TV going and you don't have to have a television in the same room as your PC. I don't care if the fidelity is amazing or not. I own 4 MCEs right now and they work fine. I also have MCE on an old xbox and an xbox 360. I have a hub/spoke jukebox model in my house where every TV is connected to just an MCE and that is connected to wired ethernet, and all the ethernet cables meet up in my office where the Media Center lives next to 2 cable boxes driven by IR blasters. Works great. I have a movie library for my kids, and I can access any movie from any room at any time. You start watching in one room, pause, finish up in another. It is tremendous. But when I go to office to work on the PC, it just seems lame to me I can't use that to do anything more than play dvr-ms files stored on the media center hard drive.
It just seems crazy to me that I have this amazing PC and monitor, but I have to bring in another TV to my office to watch the media center.
In terms of quality and delay, I haven't seen much degradation and no delay. And, again, I don't think softsled would be intended for people who want to use their PCs as TVs and sit at their desks and watch it. I think softseld is the same audience as Slingbox: you are at a PC, and you want to have a little window to watch a show while you are working. Maybe once and awhile you go full screen and watch a movie or something, but most people to watch TV would rather get an extender and TV, myself included.
In terms of softsled, I work a lot with Microsoft corporate in my job (not with the Media center group, unfortunately). But knowing the way they work, I think the following: If Microsoft had any immediate or future intent to release softsled, there would be a beta, alpha or SDK of it on MSDN Universal. A little after that, you'd see a beta on the general site. I'm a "Gold" partner, so I have access to all the sdks and everything, and there is nothing there. No SDK, not alpha, no mention. Since MSFT normally makes something available a year before the release, I don't think we'll see softsled anytime soon, sadly. They normally let the community test their stuff, so the fact that it isn't there tells me something. I am pretty sure it is a combination of the DRM issue, but it certainly has to do with Vista and Xbox 360 as well. With vista, they have a hard sell: it is tough to explain to people why they should upgrate their OS at this point...XP does everything your mom wants already. Selling mom on moving from Windows 95 was tough enough, and something I only completed in 2004. So, having little features like softsled could help them in marketing Vista. With xbox 360, I did deal with that group indirectly once. Their mantra seems to be that the 360 should be the portal for the home...not just a game machine. So, that group may very well fight with anyone who wants to put media center capability on a PC.
And, lastly, lets remember that linksys and some folks like that probably invested a lot in MCE. And I can't imagine they sell particularly well. Just looking at how Compusa treats them gives me a sense they are not exactly a hot item. Maybe the OEMs like this may have a contract and/or complain about microsoft cutting them out after they made the investment in hardware. A million reasons/speculations, but my sense is we probably won't see softsled for a long time. My only hope is slingbox forces them to do something since slingbox competes with Media Center in a way. Watching *your* TV on a PC is cool. Look at the success of slingbox to prove that. I hope that drives MSFT to do something. Meanwhile, I will continue on my current path and try to develop a kludgy standin for softsled.
Ok a couple of things.
First the X-Box to PC solution.Installing MCE and a single tuner to a PC, then hooking up to the main MCE's TV folder by watched folders does this easier and cheaper. The Main, and only 2 side effects is having to hook it up to cable, and not being able to control the main TVs guide(Or set up new recordings).
"The thing I am looking for and I think many others are, is to be able to have a MCE session within a window on your PC so that while you are working, you have your TV going and you don't have to have a television in the same room as your PC."MCE can be shrunk to a window easy just use the mouse and click the button in the upper right, also go into settings in MCE and you can make it so MCE is always on top. Shrink it down small then put it in the upper right corner and its normally out of the way.
Actually the only real thing I want from Softsled is an MCE like interface, that can use the MCE remote, to access the MCE machines guide, and start Live TV, or set a recording)Single series or keyword etc). I want to be able to view the guide set a new recording, or select a show from the guide and start watching it from my laptop etc.
Once that works using a local copy MCE for everything else works great, we just need another menu on the main screen. Instead of Live TV we need Remote TV...
Does that make it any clearer? And I know that MCE Locks the file while its writing.. isnt there a way around that? Would money being thrown at this problem solve it? Or is this something that can't be done.
I think these half-a$$ed solutions is just why we need a voluntary fund like Scuffs has proposed. Once again, I am not a highly technical programmer, but this doesn't seem like a tough nut to crack. Start with public domain source code for a RDP client, then investigate the protocol extensions for the streaming audio and video in the CE developers kit. I am sure it is well documented. Just need to tweak the custom RDP client to handle the audio and video streams. If you run into DRM problems and don't want to go any farther, then so be it. But there's $100 from me and Scuffs and probbaly 500 other people out there if you get it working!
Thanks,WRK
Stupid question. Has anyone actually snagging the image off an extender? Or gone so far as to try and run it in the emulator?
Personally I'm not a big fan of the way MS implemented this, I find it too limiting. But I would say this is the best place to start. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of the code was written in .Net-
Now concerning RDP. I recommend starting by reading code examples like "Extending Microsoft's Terminal Services Client To Provide Seamless Windows" - http://209.171.52.99/internet/tswindowclipper.asp, or taking a look at http://www.rdesktop.org/
Actually I was thinking about giving that a try tonight (trying to load the CE image in the emulator to see what happens). Whether tonight or later in the week I'll post back when I get a chance to try it.
Very little of MCE is written in .NET. Some components are, but not much. Replace Task Manager with Process Explorer - www.sysinternals.com - it will expose .NET based applications. :-)
hey guys, the real problem with this isn't the guide, it's live tv and DRM. think of it this way, if you have two computers networked and you have drmed music, they will not ply on the second computer. if anyone has ever used a soundbridge m500 or the like, and play drmed songs, it aquires the license before it streams. MCE does the same thing. there is no encoding or decoding on the pc side of the MCE, it sends the file out and then it's decoded on the extender side... that's why there's no dvix support on an extender. otherwise you could break the DRM by streaming it to another computer and write a program to capture the stream on the receiving end. that's why the extenders have the smartcard in it so that the computer can verify that it's a closed system. so that you can't capture the stream on the other end. xp is too much of an open system to do this. since we don't have cablecard, we have to use music as an example. that would be WAY to easy to break the DRM, so it has to encrypt the entire feed to the extenders so that you can't "sniff" out the info on the way there. i mean really, if you can use a program like TuneBite to rerecord DRMed WMA's to MP3's, what's to say you can't do that with video?
as for the guide, look at webguide3... you could use this program to get everything working except livetv. write a program to use the HTML from webguide 3 to make a nice MCE interface, and write the code to do everything else, and BAM, you almost have a software extender. now, here's the next problem. people like me that use napster and about 1/4 of my library is downloaded from them using subcription, and how do you get that to work on the second pc? same goes with online spotlight and d/ling the movies off movielink, they won't work on the pc extender, and this is what would need to be fixed to make a viable extender for the masses. now if you don't use either of these and your music library is straight mp3's with not copy protection, then it doesn't apply.
I stoped using anything that can't use DRM due to the fact that tunebite takes too long to encode all my music (over 4000 alone are napsters) and that the ID3 tags get messed up in the encoding.
Origami Tablet PCs to Run Special Media Center Extender Softwarehttp://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archive/2006/04/06/89549.aspx