12/25/2006: THIS MACHINE NO LONGER EXISTS. http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/156218.aspx for details on the existing setup.
UPDATED: 12/10/2006 -
This post and thread in no way reflects my current mce machine. I think I had a bad batch of new cpus which caused many computers and mobos to die. I am awaiting both amd and asus overview of the hardware to find out what my failure was because its completely unexplainable and very odd that over the course of 3-4 hours, I lost 3 machines. My current setup is actually a cross between my original mce machine (I still royally hate that mobo but its working) and some parts listed below. I'm also currently running a 1 stb, 4 atsc setup for 6 tuners using a mix of dvico hdtv3, hdtv5 and 1 ati550 pci-e cards (because I had it).
changes in bold are from the 11/25/2006 update. yes this will be a 6 tuner when completed, pending the release of vbox 164e dual atsc tuners
After a horrible summer last year with heat problems, the first sign of them already returning with the weather getting warmer and a huge hatred for my motherboard its time to rebuild! This is a little more than a rebuild. I have enough gear that I'm converting a basement storage room into what is essentially a server room and begining my home remodeling that will included a/v distribution. Obviously, this is not all happening now, even the server room is going to be more towards the end of the summer but hte MCE rebuild is already on its way..At the end I'm going to go over why I am picking each part so any of you reading this can get into my head a little and pick why I recommend what I do.Heres the parts rundown (not all of this is new parts, but a lot is):
Other noteworthy stuff:
WHOLE HOUSE STUFF:
Home network to achieve all this:
Upcoming Changes: (nothing new, still the plan)
Rundown of why I'm using what I picked:Antec Take4 case.My all time, finally happy with a case studio series from antec. These are the first brilliantly designed cases. Even if you dont rack mount them, they are PERFECT for everyone. Power supply is stretched out, has its own air intake and exhaust so the heat from the power supply doesn't mingle with the case. The side venting with 2 large 1fans in the corner forces all air to go past the entire mobo and all cards. The motherboard is in the corner making the fans directly next to the cpu allowing for passive cooling of the entire machine without adding any additional fans. All drive cages are shockmounted transfering no vibrations to the case. Plenty of external slots allowing for fast upgrades to bluray and hd-dvd when available and supported. Power supply increase will help replace my old 300W (yes I run a 300W, I don't care what you all say, if you spec out your hardware, you don't need to overkill the power supply). This is to get ready for 2 new blu-ray and hd-dvd drives plus the extra power I need for my new video card.Their studio series is designed for A/V and Audio/Video studios where the computer making noise ruins recordings and I can't come up with a better description of what you want for an HTPC case. Being rack mounted it will fit into my future server room perfect, but for now will sit desktop with rubber feet. Eventually once its all working to my liking the power cables will be cut to length with some cables I'm ever going to use removed (correctly, do not just cut up your power supply, you can kill yourself).
the case is slightly modified now. there is an air channel to bring in fresh air for hte power supply withouth mixing with the case heated air. the new power supply doesn't fit exactly. but removing 2 screws and bending back part of hte top of hte channel with just my hands and I was able to have it work just fine. at some point I will take some thin steel like you would use for ductwork and just close in the channel again making it a little house with some pre-drilled self tapping metal screws. very simple project, minimal cost.
ANTEC NEOHE 430W power supply.
for months I was battling some minor not all that often lockups when it was going into standby/hibernate. After hearing from what I would call a reputible source, they said some of the antec supplies die a lot faster than they should. the take4 case definately came with one of those and after it finally wouldn't turnon, I swapped out for my test machine power supply. its a modular power supply meaning if you connect only the power leads you need. theres no extra hanging around, no need to modify them. comes with a standard supply worth of cables and theres many optional ones if you want more exact or need more cables. have 4 sata drives? you get 2 2 sata drive power cables and connect them up. really handy to keep airflow around the case the best it possibly can be. I recommend modular supplies for any htpc setup.ASUS A8N SLI PREMIUM MOBO
This wasn't my first choice on mobo, I wanted the a8n32-sli for its extras in the area of heat disipation but it didn't have enough slots. I accidently ordered it and tried to use it but the heat pipe between chipsets was in the way of a pci-express tuner. Ironically, after I sold it to a coworker, I'm no longer using the pci-express tuners and have my second choice of mobo. For future expansion, this does give me 2 pci-express slots that don't have physical size restrictions.
The board gives me 3 pci, 1 pci-e x1 and 1 pci-e x4 (1, 2, 4 cards work in it). so its 2 pci-express slots and 3 pci. theres also 2 x16 cards for sli video setup, but I'm only using 1 slot. It has a heatpipe for chipset removing that fan from the picture. Good memory support, dual gig ethernet, 8 sata drives, 4 ide. should work well.
I recently swapped out this board for another exact model for no reason. what happened is I was watching hte clock and had 30 mins to gut 2 machines to get a working power supply into my mce setup before the tv shows started. There was a cpu sale and I was able to get 3700+ cpus for $80 each. I planned to up the cpu for vista so took the sale. while I have the mce machine apart, I tossed in the new cpu, but I accidently attached the cpu fan to the wrong power connector. even swapping back the old cpu trying to get it to boot and I did it again. I didn't notice until I had the new board already instaleld and was looking over it carefully making sure it was ready to power on when I caught the mistake. theres a lot of extras on this board and be careful if you use it. this was a $300 error on my part because I didn't know if memory was bad and got some spare memory just in case. it was already mounted so only the memory is going back making it a $170 error (overnight fees plus shipping back for the memory).
Sony VAIO VGP-XL1B2 Media Changer
This is the new sony dvd changer for media center. It holds 200 dvds/cds or combinations of. Its the only standalone changer and its a fraction of the cost of the other oem model that some companies are rebranding on their own. Connects to mce with just a single firewire cable. Its basically an external dual layer dvd burner that happens to hold 200 discs.
It has some cool features like auto cd ripping where it'll run the media player ripping option for you and change discs. It can also bulk burn shows to dvd just be selecting them and it'll tell you how many blanks you need to have inside the unit. In the case of series, it'll burn then sequentially uses the least amount of discs needed. It can't do atsc shows but mce can do that on its own.
also has a pretty cool cd playing option where you can select cds to play from or selecting them all. Not a bad option for the audiophille who wants to keep everything lossless.
I like it so much, I got 2 more and now hold my entire dvd collection in them. well that and the price for 2 more was less than I paid for my first one :)
AMD 3700+ athlon64 (san diego core I think).When I first built out my first mce machine, I used an a64 3000+. Would have been powerful enough except purevideo was not in the drivers yet so everything was software decoding. When I ran up to 4 tuners and some extenders, I had to upgrade to a 3500+ back then. I no longer have the 3000 to use but I have another machine that could use the 3500+ so I am swapping the 3200 it has for the 3500. I ended up having to put back in the 3500, theres some atsc channels that have a wierd datastream requiring it to software decode. also the extra strain on the mce machine with extenders required more power in the mce machine.
A sale on 939 pin athlon64s yielded me one for $80. I planned to bump it up a little more around when vista comes out. the sale was good so it got an early upgrade. its s discontinued cpu now so I didn't want to chance faster being available later when I was ready for it.
Corsair TWINX2048-4000PT memory.Decent price on 2G with 2 slots memory with spreaders on them. Listed in the compatible with this mobo list and no leds to light up the room when it bleeds through vent holes. NVIDIA DualTV
Brand New dual tuner. only uses 1 slot even when running 2 stbs. a little pricing but after going over the manual, it looks like the only tuner that you can adjust settings on without reg hacking and looking at the picture.DVICO HDTV5 GOLD (x2)
My favorite ATSC tuners. Best for urban enviroment and obstructions. I'm near an airport in a city and my tv channels are all around me. works great for me. This will be replaced with 2 vbox cat's eye 164e pci-express dual atsc tuners when they are released. I'm gonna miss my dvicos but I need the pci slots back for other parts.Pioneer DVD-ROM slot load dvd.
This wasn't my first choice. I originally baught a liteon dual layer burner but it arrived dead. I put this in to get it working with the plans to change it later but than I remembered, I have a 200 disc changer now thats also a burner. This drive is the best ripping drive I have ever owned. REAL FAST so its staying in.
Floppy removed.
Not too long ago I picked up a grab 2x usb floppy. I use that for bios and sata drivers now. I never used the media card reader that was in it also so I pulled it out to make more room for air to flow around. I lost no functionality by removing it, just less parts in the mce machine now.
Rounded IDE and Floppy cables (no brand, I mde them myself).
Not listed above but rounded cables are to increase airflow inside the case. I may not actually need these now that I have it initally hooked up, but I may still.Asus EN7600GT/2DHTTired of my gamer's 6200, have issues with 1080i wmv-hd content and no purevideo acceleration. I would have went with the 7300 but the 7600 did a little more and I can reuse it when I upgrade to a new card when hdcp is a requirement for my setup.HD: 2 HITACHI 400G sataI raid 0
I only run hitachi drives (previously ibm). The only drives I know that 1: have a predict failure utility that will send in an rma for new drives before they die for cross shipment, 5 year warrenty, Native Command Queing, and the best of all, a little utility that will allow you to change all the buffer and spin up settings. You can very quickly tune the drives for what works best for dvrs instead of the generic usage default. I tend to run almost all read and no write buffers. A few other changes. I'll document them.Logitech MX5000 Secure Bluetooth w/laser mouseI LOVE this keyboard and mouse combo. I considered changing to the backlit gamer model but I changed all my keyboards to this and it has a slightly different center of keyboard key layout so to stay consistant, I'm just going to use it (and I own it already). Secure bluetooth allows me to have several running in close proximity and a bluetooth sniffer can't pick it up. Also allows the use of bluetooth headsets for voice conferences/skype/etc. Decent range of 70 feet allows me to wander the house while taking to someone. Also has a non-secure sync option where it'll open up a temp non-secure bluetooth access for pdas, phones, cameras, etc just by hitting a button on the keyboard. The k/b and mouse also have off buttons to save on battery. Standard MCE OEM remote.Gotta have the remote and ir emitters. I already have a few or I would have went with the nvidia tuners with mce remote in the box version.Sticking with the old DirecTV HD stbs I have since they change channels flawlessly.Nothing fancy but one is a 169time modified version. Gotta have my directv. Even with SD recording of hd channels, I still get shows not available on other channels and after all, I watch shows I enjoy, not ones that only look pretty. Work well, 100% reliable on channel changes, MCE knows the remote and they turn themselves back on in the event of a power outage.Need to change my battery backup for somethign to handle the 450W power supply but I haven't picked it out yetMy battery right now is bare minimum just enough to handle the mce machine, wake it up and shutdown on a power outage. It can't handle the larger power supply and nothing kills an mce machine faster than a power outage in sleep mode.
APC Backup somethign or other 1600W model with 2 expansion batteries.
I changed out my backup for a long run version. I can power mce, my set top boxes, the splitter for the sat, the tv and speakers for 3 hours at full usage. 5-6 if the tv and speakers are off like when its recording. I also have a cordless phone connected for emergency needs. I love it except the neighbors know so I tend to get company in blackouts.
Disk Keeper
I used to use perfect disk for my defragging needs. I ran into a free copy of disk keeper and after trying it a few months on another machine, I realized I was getting some weird standby issues after a defrag with perfect disk on mce. so I changed to disk keeper which is working great. perfect disk I like better but I automate my defragging and diskkeeper works best for set and forget.Simplifi Amplified. USB 5.1 black model.
This is an amp with a sound card built in. I love the way it sounds. its still in the box though. I'm waiting to see if I am staying with media center or going to the new directv hd dvr (whatever it really is). I got it on sale so I should be able to resell it, new in box for the sale cost I paid. its the only reason I'm not using it. I do not know if that new hd dvr is mce based and can use this device. i'm playing it safe.
To help everyone who is trying to build a reliable, heat friendly mce setup, I will over document my construction with plenty of pictures and detailed how I built it, what settings I changed, when I installed and plugged in what hardware, default utils I drop in, EVERYTHING. I'll use this thread to hold it all.
Mike Garcen (formerly ShadyMG) TGB Moderator | MissingRemote HTPC Website| Microsoft MVP - Media Center
So then nVidia’s 7000 line doesn’t support HDCP,…?
Would it then be possible to get one of the OEM 6200 or 6600 series cards that ship with some Sony MCE PCs that actually support HDCP?
I haven’t tried in part because I want something more powerful then a 7300xx or 7600xx (so a 6200/6600 would be worse) but I do have some family that work for Sony and might be able to get a hold of these OEM HDCP compliant parts.
Damn, I thought the 7000 line had HDCP support.
I guess I’ll just wait for DX10 and Windows Vista (some version with Vista MCE) logo video cards before buying,…..
otta love the tax refund. PERFECT timing on its release. I learned a long time ago the effort to keep an onlnie library is a pain, raised the temp of the pc and room, was just not worth it and the cost difference over time is not minor when you get into cooling the room, etc. We wont even get into how much time I spend doing that.
To comment on an earlier mention, I decided to do the large writeup just because its a lot of hte same quetions over and over. And I always find it shocking where people cut corners and then have standby issues, reliability problems, unsatisfactory performance, heat problems.. I figured a quick moment into what I look for in parts and how I set them up could be usefull. Theres more too this than inital costs, long term power needs, heat, cooling of hte room its located in when its hot out, features you'll use and avoiding future replacement of major parts or using a slot. firewire on the board really doesn't cost more but not having it can end up taking up a slot or having to replace a mobo later which may not work with your memory, cpu, video card, etc... Now, if I didn't get firewire, I would need to add it in for that changer.
> So then nVidia’s 7000 line doesn’t support HDCP,…?
Its not that straight forward. the 6xxx and 7xxx both support hdcp in the chipset, but that doesn't mean hdcp works. HDCP is 2 parts, 1 is the chipset needs to support it, then ther manufacturer of the card has to put the hdcp chip onto the video card and enable it in the chipset. So you can have models with and without it depending on who made it and if they wanted it on the board. For instance, a workplace may not need it so there is a business model. a gamer probably would want it, but probably isn't using a tv so doesnt' need it also. its the mce/dvr/general users that would most likely get it
> Would it then be possible to get one of the OEM 6200 or 6600 eries cards that ship with some Sony MCE PCs that actually support HDCP?
Last years models. this years are faster and do more.
> I haven’t tried in part because I want something more powerful then a 7300xx or 7600xx (so a 6200/6600 would be worse) but I do have some family that work for Sony and might be able to get a hold of these OEM HDCP compliant parts.
don't touch the 6200, its lifetime is limited and those with it area already getting into "can I update" problems.
> I guess I’ll just wait for DX10 and Windows Vista (some version with Vista MCE) logo video cards before buying,…..
I'm thinking dx10 might be accerlated via the driver. Never really looked at the vista driver release note to see.
day 1, number of problems: 6, progress: going backwords!
All the parts are in, I ended up having to run to fedex because they delivered earlier than normal and I wasn't home. Its GirlScout cookie day also so I had my box of thin mints, my new toys and was ready to go.
Problem 1:
The Take4 case is dramatically different that the take3. Its not a show stopper and some of the features are actually way cool. The power supply's air intakes runs all the way down to the front giving it a good supply of fresh air and it exhausts out the back. I kinda like this, but it removed a 5.25 exposed drive bay leaving me with 2. like I said not a show stopper, 1 for blu-ray, 1 for hd-dvd. Center has 2 exposed 3.5" bays. floppy check, extra air intake, check. now the hard drives. WAY COOL!! all can be accessed from the front. so with good cable management you could actually put a drive out. shockmounted to their little trays, correct spaced so they don't overheat each other. nice setup. However, I'm not sure I can hot swap the sata drives I have so I need to research that. the power supply ends don't really favor the drive being pulled out with the case closed which I'm surprised by since its the only supply you can use with the case with their custom intake.
Problem 2:
The case wasn't a show stopper and I know I can't fit some of my cards into the take 3 which is smaller so moving on. Get the motherboard in. interesting fit took a little patience to get it all in and a really long phillips to get the corner screw fastened. I was too lazy to take the shock mounted tray out but not a big deal. So the problem I look down on the board planning my attack for the next steps. should I do cpu before cable routing? memory before cables? memory before both? as I'm looking at the way cool layout it suddenly hits me. theres a slot missing. I know it had 3 pci, 2 x16, 1 x1 and 1 x4. wheres the x1? while I'm looking it over thinking who the hell screwed up that one problem 3 hit me.
Problem 3:
the fancy heat pipe for the fanless chipsets sticks up just behind one of the existing pci slots. quickly I rip open a pci-express tuner and viola, it doesn't fit, the pipe is in the way. Now I'm thinking great, there goes my whole plan to get rid of my pci-expansion chasis. I could say screw the 3rd atsc tuner and go back to 4 tuners, I could go external with it, right now this might be a show stopper meaning the mobo is not going to work for me. wors part is, theres plenty of room on the board for the pipe to be run differently, it doesn't need to jet up at this point. I'm not going to modifiy a heat pipe, thats just asking for issues
Problem 4:
since I was dead in the water and not sure if I was going to return the board. I decided to just check the rest of the board layout. Was anythign else a problem. Viola, the cpu power cable (4 wires yellow and black square end) can't reach the plug. even if it was in its normal spot and not way in the corner, it cuts the slots in 1/2. I know this case is designed for dual cpu mobos but I don't see where it would go. do they make extensions for these? do I have to extend the cable myself? I have no problem extending the cable but in this case, I can't even test fit it to make sure it works before I modify the case and can't just return it.
Problem 5:
Surely this build is going to start going my way at some point. I already had some time to think about what I was willing to sacrific when viola! problem 5, the pci-express power connector is a stock 4 pin drive connector. this might only be for sli uses so I'm not too excited yet. it does use a 24 pin power block so it may just not be needed for this setup.
Its at this point I packed up everything and decided to not move forward because there is too many issues to resolve.
Problem 6:
I go back online and read the specs. it definately says more slots but why is the pic different? great, I ordered the wrong mobo. at least i'm assuming I did that. I was so caught up in no wifi that I didn't make sure it said premium instead of deluxe. no wonder it was $20 cheaper at this store. I'll check the receipt when I pack up the board for return. the mobo I wanted has the extra slot and the heatpipe doesn't jet up behind any slots. Ok, so now its time to order a new board, try to return this one without a restock fee. I'm on a long weekend vacation next week so I guess I'm 2 weeks behind again.
Problem 7:
I know I only said it was 6 problems, but I figured I would say thats its way cool this not only had external sata ports, but external raid. but that came at a price, the back firewire and serial port are going to take up a slot. I dont have a free slot. so I have to mod the case to make a backplate mount for the firewire that will run my cd changer I ordered. but wait, I'm missing a slot. I was going to have 1 free slot opened waiting for a good pci-express firewire 800 card. I don't really need this card. so I guess I'm going to do a little tuner research right now and see if I can come up with a tuner I like that'll fit in that length reduced location. Or try to get my hands on a reference board for some new dual tuner pci-express atsc tuners I've been chasing after. hmm do they make cpu power extensions? they must, much better than having to crack open a brand new power supply before I know if it works.
Moral of the story. Your going to mess up. Not having a way to see the parts before you get them and they may not fit together. I knew it was risky going with a heatpipe setup, and it wouldn't have been a big deal if I ordered the correct mobo. I can't get a replacement here by sat so I'm going to take the night and day to figure out if I want to go the replacement route or make due.
My parts are on order. Mobo, 2 p4 extension cables, several spools of wires and connectors to rewire the power supply outputs once I'm ready for that. a new tube of thermal paste and some passive or low speed fans that I wanted to take a look at anyhow. coworkers that like toys are good for this, they tend to take parts I didn't want/like/use off my hands.
the dvd changer came in. have it temporarily hooked up to another machine. wanted to see what else sony put into their drivers. like any of the drm stuff that try to sneak on with dvds and cds including their usage reporting package.