Well, I don't know much about 2005.  I understand that it has the same problems, but am unaware of the promises made or the timeline of it's release vs digital TV.  Certainly Vista was released well after US TV stations had been broadcasting digitial signals 100% of the time, and the specs and formats were agreed to, locked down and operational.  Perhaps if you'd like to make a case for 2005 it would be better made in another thread, and supported with factual backup there so as not to dilute this?

But, in Vista, I've collected PDFs and Web Archives of numerous pages/documents that are very clear to me, and any one else that would be expecting to "Turn your PC into a DVR".

I've also provided numerous links and quotes that support the position that the bug fixes are due.  You know, the promises to tune digital stations, promises to work with DTV and HDTV and to include a program guide, at no additional cost?

What I haven't seen is ONE single good reason, or link to an official position, that would explain WHY we should accept this.  Not an "opinion" that we should accept it.  Not, well, we're just running out of time "case closed" and we hope you accept it.  Someone please point out to me where a consumer could reasonably have understood why the EPG wouldn't work...  haven't seen a single logical, well reasoned, and factually supported post from MS's reps here.

If you can't, then know that I really don't care whether Win 7 is out in 2 days, 2 months, or 2 years, it doesn't change the obligation to fix what you've already sold and promised me in Vista.

It's not our fault that MSs Media Center Team left major and fundamental flaws in a promised feature, whether it's an OS architecture problem, or within the program itself, or if they just haven't budgeted their time/resources correctly to address it.

If your solution is to offer a FREE upgrade to Win 7 instead of a bug fix, then fine.  Otherwise, the bug fix is over due.  Whatever you need to do on your end to meet your obligations, start planning for it!

below is the link from February when i was asking this exact same question, and a Microsoft representative's answer. It was a issue then and a issue now. If you follow the reply's down from the link " the Quote is " It is on our radar. Jeff Tucker
Microsoft | Media Center"

---

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/permalink/337437/337390/ShowThread.aspx#337390

You can turn your PC into a DVR.  You can add subchannels to Vista.  You can record a show on ANY channel even if the guide data is not available.  I've had to do that before when the channel information was not available from Media Center, or my Cox cable DVR, but the TV station said it was coming on.

The only thing I can figure out is that you are demanding/requesting/pleading/begging for subchannel guide information in Vista.  I don't recall that being promised and I don't recall reading it in the Vista RPG.  Once again, it would be nice, but I didn't expect that, I don't think many people did expect that.

The statement turning your PC into a DVR does not equal we will make it perfect and simple for the user.  Show me how you cannot turn your PC into a DVR and I'll look at your hooch again.

If you search this forum you will see this has been a significant issue, I understand if these features are not important to someone it might seem like "demanding/requesting/pleading/begging" ,but even Microsoft understood it was a big enough problem to correct in vista TV pack and win 7. So because i purchased vista ultimate early on this feature is not available to me. It just seems simple to me, it has been fixed in TV pack now it should be fixed in vista

an Electronic Program Guide is part and parcel to a DVR working.  It is EXPLICITLY promised to be part of the package--thus, it should WORK.  IT DOESN'T.

Again, I'm waiting for a single logical, well reasoned, and supported by documentation or links rather than opinion, that would say contradict the common sense conclusion that the EPG should actually be complete and usable.

And again, since the knee jerk apologists don't seem to read:

1) http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/mediacenter/extenderfaq.mspx

Q:  Can I access and use the Program Guide with Windows Media Center to watch TV or select TV shows that I want to record through my Media Center Extender?
A:  Yes. You will have all of the Windows Media Center functionality that you have on your PC through your Media Center Extender, including all of the TV options—as long as your PC has a TV tuner card.
 

2) http://www.microsoft.com/ireland/windows/products/windowsvista/features/experiences/tvandmovies/discover.mspx

"Find the ideal show for you

Rather than changing the channel to find a good show, you can get an instant list of what's on now and what will be on in the hours or days ahead. While you're watching TV, just press the Guide button on the Windows Media Center remote control to display the on-screen Electronic Program Guide. The show you're watching will remain in the background as you browse for shows or for information such as program times and plot summaries.

I'll be waiting for some inteligent counterpoint response ((and no doubt be waiting a very long time)) as to how a broken/partial EPG would fit the bill as having met your obligations to fulfill the promise.  Haven't seen the apologists post a single link or indication to support the position that incomplete EPG is what end users could reasonable expect.

Do you really think if (should I say, when) this goes to court for class action relief should you choose not to fix the problem that a half-baked partial EPG will count for an EPG?  Keep dreaming.

Orphaning the DIY HTPC builders, and all the OEM Vista Home Premium and Ultimate users that await the TVPack is a one way ticket to bad karma, bad publicity, and ultimately, some kind of settlement when the defective product is reviewed against the very simple, direct claims made in advertising, a few of which are quoted above.

Users have been patient for too long, expecting that the next patch, or service pack would hold the answer...

It's on like Donkey Kong.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-media-center/pc-as-dvr-on-windows-vista.aspx

DVR guide

Spend less time searching for shows and more time enjoying them. The free DVR guide makes it easy to find the shows you want and to schedule TV shows and movies up to two weeks in advance. Search for programs by title, keyword, or genre.

That functionality is not being fully provided as it is described. If your cable or satellite company didn't provide informatation for certain channels, wouldn't you complain too?

walkabt:

The only thing I can figure out is that you are demanding/requesting/pleading/begging for subchannel guide information in Vista.  I don't recall that being promised and I don't recall reading it in the Vista RPG.  Once again, it would be nice, but I didn't expect that, I don't think many people did expect that.

Many people didn't expect the guide to be complete and accurate? That's hard to believe...

Mark,

I don't know why you have received such negative responses to a well thought out post on a problem that keeps going on forever.  I too have posted about this, and I keep being told that it is "on their radar".  But it is really beginning to seem like they never intended to fix this issue at all.  I agree completely with your post, and I support all you have said.  I wish this issue would get fixed through Vista.  I have had to tell many friends that they should not consider using Windows for their PVR needs because of these kinds of problems and the customer service that is lacking.  I would love an update that solves this problem or a free upgrade to Windows 7 too, but I have this sinking feeling that neither will come.  This is quite disappointing. 

People.  I have been in contact with MS multiple times.  They will not admit that there is a problem, though it has been all over the Internet like a plague for years.  You will not find any evidence of this issue on the MS website, nor will you find a patch, update, or someone who cares.  We represent only a few hundred thousand customers.  As you know, if MS satisfies 51% of the population on any one feature, they are doing great!  Spending 79 cents to fix this very simple problem is not a concern.  It is not a fair, nor is it fair that you bought Vista and it was announced to be replaced 12 months later.  MS is concerned with people buying new product, not making what you already bought work properly.  That is now they made their fortune.  MS is in a customer service industry, but has chosen to automate and outsource customer service, because customer service it is not a priority, or even a concern.  We might as well stop whining and figure out how to fix this ourselves.  As sure as death, taxes, and Google Chrome OS taking a giant chunk out of MS this fall, MS is not going to help.  I sure hope they are reading this.  Gotta love those Mac commercials.....

Suggestions:

1.  Setup your Guide to be a local digital cable channel which carries all of the received channels and adjust each OTA channel (1-by-1) to grab listings from appropriate digital channel.  This works, but can be buggy each time you update for a while.  If you are on dial-up, plan on taking about 30 minutes to update the guide each week, as MS is not smart enough to load only the channels that are used out of the hundreds available.

2.  Build a MythTV box and throw MS away.  The Linux guys actually care about your satisfaction and will resond to requests, known bugs, and emerging technology.

3.  Look up the guide on your own, and manually set programs to record like you did with a VCR decades ago.

OK, I'm angry with MS.  But, shame on them.  No wonder Mac can charge 50% more.  Are you reading this MS?

MS did spend the money to fix it, but only on Win 7 as a broadly released product. They have resource limitations like everybody else. You can keep beating your head against a wall (and it's a very big wall), or go with the flow and choose Win 7 or some other solution.

 they also spent the money on vista with TV pack, they just did not give it to everybody. Thats the real issue for me. I beleive it is important enough to some long time media center users, to keep on complaining, if they feel strongly enough.

I do agree with your position in principle, IMHO MSFT did not deliver on their written promise. But TV pack had some functional problems. It is probably better for everyone to leave it behind. At this point, what would the "remedy" be? A free license for Win 7? That does not seem likely. I am in the same boat as you and bought two pre-release licenses for $50 each, to lose some personal aggravation. BTW even Win 7 build 7100 (RC) is miles ahead of vista with TV pack, not to mention MCE2005.

DeaneG

I do agree with your position in principle, IMHO MSFT did not deliver on their written promise. But TV pack had some functional problems. It is probably better for everyone to leave it behind.

 

I also agree with you in principle, and i have moved on, I have a working copy of TV pack and i have pre orderd windows 7, But it all left me with a bad taste. Vista is still microsofts current system, and i have a lot invested in it. To bad media center is not more stand alone,  It always feels so wastful to leave a perfectly good operating system just for a few media center features ( just dreaming)

The thing is.. We all spent $200+ on Vista.  MS has admitted numerous times, that Windows 7 is Vista fixed.  Now, a year (or 2) after spending our money, we must spend that same amount for the fix, just like those who never struggled with Vista, or made their "donation" to MS.  We should be offered an upgrade at reduced price - or free as a service pack.  MS has set themselves up for a class-action lawsuit.  The more noise we can make, the sooner this will occur, or the sooner they will be shamed into fair practice.

If we leave it behind and move on, we will be hit again a year from now when MS makes their next business decision to suck more blood out of us.  I'm looking pale already!

Linux distributions are the fastest growing OS's. Much more stable and absolutely free!  Go Ubuntu!!

I am looking a little pale also, I bought and installed vista on two HTPC's and feel Microsoft gave up on it before i did.  I did take advantage of the $49.00 preorder of home premium win7 , and have been running win 7rc for almost a year. With some of the cable card talk I am hooked again, It would be nice to get some $49.00 vouchers for our purchased copies of vista.