this problem for Vista is over two years old.  the problems get talked about, there are allusions to a fix forthcoming...but nothing has happened.

This isn't a slam to the developers, whom I believe are entirely capable of fixing this issue, rather a statement that concerns the direction from the higher ups that are deciding what issues to fix, and more to the point, what resources to devote to the Win7/TVPack of the future vs. fixing issues in the product of today.

Yes, I know there is a temporary upgrade price break to Win7 being offered through July 11.  And yes, the prices are reasonable in and of themselves...for people who want a new OS.

But I just want to make this very very clear to the folks in Redmond:  I don't need another operating system.  I just need the media center pc (HPm7760n) which is completely filled with "windows compatible" certified hardware, to run correctly.  It isn't having issues due to the component vendors' firmware, nor the OEM aggregator/seller (HP)...It IS having problems doing the basic functions of performing as a media center (Tivo if you will).  No arbitrator panel, or jury made up of common sense laypeople would look at the product as is and say that you've met your target.  It would be viewed as laughable subterfuge to say "well, ummm, we ahhh renamed MCE to MCE TVPack, so we didn't think we needed to fix this totally different outdated product..."  (Eddie Haskell would think it and say it, but even the Beav would know the moment the words rolled out that it was wrong)

I think people here have been VERY patient.  We've seen two service packs roll out, and 2+ years go by...and nothing...except for getting to hear now that "win7 is fixed" and watching the analog OTA cutoff date come and go without any meaningful updates.

On principal you OWE it to your customers who bought the Premium and Ultimate software to fix it--whether it came as part of an OEM purchase, or an direct sale to a DIY HTPC builder.  This is a matter of principal.  If your solution/bug fix of choice is to say that we should upgrade to Win7 - then I'll expect a coupon for a FREE upgrade.  Otherwise, someone needs to get coding!  Because, once again, I DO NOT NEED A NEW OPERATING SYSTEM.  I JUST NEED YOU TO DELIVER WHAT WAS PROMISED.  And this PC's raison d'etre is to be a media center...and so it FAILS.

You folks are really close, the product looks nice, and when tuned to a channel delivers a remarkably good viewing experience.  But to promise schedules as part of the package - and not have usable schedules/guides for OTA users is ridiculous.  And worse, when we can log into Zap2It's web page and see that the data is sitting there waiting to just be plugged into the right spots! Now that the issues of adding the channels themselves is resolved, please follow through and fix this.

I'm sorry that marketing blunders, and a few tech missteps, and God-knows whatever else contributed to Vista's overall lack of a splash in the marketplace.  I can appreciate that MS wants to get going w/ Win7 as quickly as possible to get some momentum going.  But to do so at the expense of not fulfilling reasonable promisses of functionality to existing customers is unacceptable.  If you don't want to add the nicer UI enhancements of the TVPack, I can get that (even if TVPack is already released on Vista)...I'd asy it was weasely, but I'd probably tolerate it...but to not fix fundamental usability of promised functionality is unacceptable.

This had almost nothing to do with ATSC subchannels, not sure why you decided to post it there.  Split into new post.

SPLIT

right:  wasn't about adding ATSC Subchannels, which has been working well for me, it was about the useless ATSC Subchannel guide info...

had several windows/tabs open...could've pasted the reply into the wrong one.  thanks

You know I feel the same way about my car.

I mean I've been waiting 6 years for Honda to release an update that would make my car faster and get better milage. It just sucks because there hasn't been one update since I bought it and in the meantime all the people who bought new Hondas got better milage and better performance.

I just don't get it.

Dear BJ

To try and explain things in simple terms you might understand...this would be when a car manufacturer issues a RECALL.  to fix a broken or badly designed thing.  This isn't the same as putting a new feature in the car...now do you get it?

The computer is supposed to work like a DVR (think Tivo).  You'll notice the functionality explicitly promised as a differentiator between flavors of Vista; and  part of what is promised as part of that is to have schedules/programming guides--included.  Guess what slick--they still don't work.  Yes, there is a program guide, it just isn't functional.  Sub channel guide data is correct at Zap2It's database, but somewhere in the collection and retransmission to end users MS is F'n it up...they know it's an issue, and yet haven't made the fix available to people who bought the same Windows Vista Premium as DIY builders, or to early OEM adopters...the renaming thing and saying that somehow OEM builders are responsible to distribute the TVPack update is ridiculous.

I've had a microsoft tech tell me to download it...then realize "ooops" we don't make that update available off of our site.  So sure, I could go get it off some site (torrents or third party download site) without knowing if it's compromised...but I shouldn't have to.  The product hasn't achieved a reasonable level of functionality, it has FAILED to deliver on its promise.  Microsoft is responsible for fullfilling the promise of it's OS, and this feature is promised as part of the higher price paid for Home Premium and Ultimate users.

Otherwise, I could've done a MythTV installation and paid for the guides...but MCE was raved about in the press, and promised to INCLUDE a program guide.

And unlike the FOSS, there is also an understanding when you pay for software that it work...maybe there are some bugs that take a reasonable amount of time to get fixed...and separate from that is features that you'd like that weren't promised that may or may not be in a later version--like the UI improvements of the TVPack, which I said I would understand if the WEREN'T included...but what I will NOT ACCEPT is to have an ACKNOWLEDGED (read other threads) broken promised feature be wrote off because it's inconvenient for them to fix in Vista as they're hard at work on Win7.

AGAIN...I DON'T NEED ANOTHER OS...I JUST NEED THE FEATURES PROMISED AS PART OF VISTA HOME PREMIUM TO FINALLY WORK.

Lots of posts have been made here and elsewhere about the problem, and the heat's going to rise as more people see that both service packs have come and gone, and the digital transition date's come and gone...and it will be a matter of time before someone files a class action lawsuit...I'm not a lawyer, but as a business person who has worked for large companies I can understand that they're probably weighing out - how many people will it affect; how many people will complain; the likelihood of someone filing a suit; and how likely the lack of a program guide affects the use and function of a media center...among other things...like how the press would treat the story, legal costs vs programming costs and ability to stay on schedule for Win7 release.  Alot of things are considered other than whether or not by principal they'd fix it...and that's what class action suits are for.

About the only thing correct in your post is that you "just don't get it"

So there is no misunderstanding, here is MS's description of what to expect: 

(following quote taken from http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-media-center/pc-tv-on-windows-vista.aspx)

"Turn your PC into a DVR

I understand the functionality is missing. I just don't understand why you think it was ever promised? Got a link for that?

Ever try to program a Tivo/DVR WITHOUT  a program guide?  let me know how that works for you...

it is an obvious, and fundamental requirement of usability.

The program guide is promised and is part of not spending $$ that you would with Tivo or MythTV on data subscriptions. But the program guide just doesn't work.  All sub channels just duplicate the primary channel...it's that simple.  The data has been there at Zap2It, the sub channels themselves are received at my machine...but the guide doesn't work now, nor  has  it ever worked properly.

This is not freakin' rocket science.  People shouldn't be left to scavenge torrent sites, or do registry hacks to get basic functionality.  Do you REALLY believe that you would stand up and defend this as a functioning/workable DVR in front of a jury or arbitrator?  How about your friends...want to invite them over to watch TV with a nonfunctioning guide?  That’s cool, you can just show them how you can use the guide in your web browser...  It is a simple and small point to fix, but it renders the experience a pathetic shell.

ONCE AGAIN, READ THE ABOVE:

following quote taken from http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-media-center/pc-tv-on-windows-vista.aspx)

"Turn your PC into a DVR

With an optional TV tuner, you can receive broadcast TV and record programs just like other DVRs, only without monthly charges. Watch, pause, and rewind live TV, easily program future recordings, and more—with no monthly fees."

THIS REQUIRES A PROGRAM GUIDE, A FUNCTIONAL ONE!!!! AND IS SAID TO BE INCLUDED.

Nothing else needs to be said, but if you’re really a glutton for punishment:

Microsoft's site is constantly changing, particularly w/ the onset of selling Win7, even some links marked as part of Vista are linking to Win7 items...

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-vista/discover/dvr-and-entertainment.aspx

Here is a good indication:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/mediacenter/extenderfaq.mspx

Q:  Can I access and use the Program Guide with Windows Media Center to watch TV or select TV shows that I want to record through my Media Center Extender?
A:  Yes. You will have all of the Windows Media Center functionality that you have on your PC through your Media Center Extender, including all of the TV options—as long as your PC has a TV tuner card.

THIS ONE’S GREAT
http://www.microsoft.com/ireland/windows/products/windowsvista/features/experiences/tvandmovies/discover.mspx

There is a disconnect somewhere. I use the guide data in Media Center to schedule over-the-air recording every day and have for over a year. It works perfectly.

I do exactly what that link says, I receive broadcast TV and record programs just like other DVRs.

Well, that may be true...for you.  

Do you may have the TVPack?

Are you may be using OTA with Cable or Satelite and thus be meshing/priortitizing taping off OTA using the cable/satelite schedule tied together with OTA?

Know that for OTA-only users, the problem I have is recognized as persisting.

For me, the guide's subchannels don't work, and haven't worked: until the OTA transition, ie. channels 4.2, 4.3, etc. all show the program guide information for 4.1, now the subchannels just say "No data available. Also, since the 6/12 OTA transition, I need to completely reset my guide (I don't mean just re-download the guide) every few days as it seems to loose connections/mappings between channels I've already setup successfully via “Add Listings to Channel” under Settings.

The issue is not with hardware, nor firmware, it is MS’s lack of software support for the orphaned class of users who bought prior to TVPack’s release.

Please note that the TVPack enhancements and bug fixes (the TVPack has itself been updated a few times) are NOT available to anyone who bought the Vista Home Premium for DIY, nor to people who bought OEM machines prior to TVPack's release.

MS has made the updates that fixed many of MCE’s issues "OEM only" in a renamed it "MCE TVPack".  You may be familiar with this blog post: "The real reason why the Media Center TV pack update was OEM only? by Ben Drawbaugh, posted Feb 13th 2009 at 2:49PM"; http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/13/the-real-reason-why-the-media-center-tv-pack-update-was-oem-only/”

No download of the TVPack exists on MS's site, whether direct or via the Windows Update.  My Windows Update checks routinely, and nothing is or has been available to address these issues as the TVPack cumulative updates don’t apply to the orphaned class of Vista Home Premium or Ultimate users who bought prior to the release of TVPack.

Again, as I said in the original post...I don’t expect all the UI improvements of the TVPack or Win 7 MC, but I do expect the bug fixes to be taken care of, and to continue to be taken care of.  Just because Win7 is the new hot thing doesn’t obviate the responsibility to Vista customers.

No, I just don't watch the sub channels.

Face it, this shipped sailed years ago when Vista was released in 07 and you still haven't gotten over it.

It isn't going to happen, and from this point on like everyone else, I'm just going to ignore you because you obviously have very unreasonable expectations.

Well, that's mature and well reasoned.  The ATSC tuner and specs, and the idea of subchannels shouldn't be a suprise to anyone.  It is marketed as a digital DVR...guess what genius?

And while you may be a well connected fan boy, you aren't a decision maker, nor are you technical support.  It's no doubt popular with the powers that be that you take that position...I get it.  That's why you get software to "review" for engadget.

But just because you're willing to suck up whatever is given you, and given your connections here I completely understand....well, you can trust I'll be ignoring you and your biased fanboy opinions.

I really did laugh out loud when I read this.

I have more negative Microsoft/Media Center posts than any blogger -- well maybe not as many Chris, he can be pretty negative too.

Thank you marklar2u

I feel exactly the same way, I had to go to win 7rc to get the guide to work correctly for me. win 7 is nice, but i did not need a new operating system, I needed the one i bought to work correctly,

- atsc spec hasn't changed. 
- Windows Compatible hardware - yep "certified"



(following excerpts from http://www.dtvprimer.com/timeline.html)
April 1, 2004 -- Broadcast stations required to transmit digitally 75 percent of the time that they broadcast analog programming.
April 1, 2005 -- Broadcast stations required to transmit digitally 100 percent of the time that they broadcast analog programming.


January 30, 2007 -- date Windows Vista was available for public sale.

so tell me again about ships sailing?  uhhh, actually, don't.

Quote from Microsoft: (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/newsroom/windows/factsheets/WindowsVistaFS.mspx)
" additional DTV/HDTV tuner support is available in the U.S. and South Korea with compatible hardware. To enjoy all the benefits of Windows Media Center, Internet access is recommended; for some features, such as the Microsoft Electronic Programming Guide, it is required."

get it?  DTV/HDTV...program guide....what else would anyone expect?  this was planned and promised from the start.  IT IS STILL 2.5 YEARS LATER A FAILURE.

Just because some people are marshmallows and decide to roll over and "just don't watch the sub channels." doesn't mean I'm willing to accept this crap.  Who says channle 13.1 is any more or less important than 13.3? 

To the rest of you searching for info on this topic: Pull your heads out of the sand and wakeup!  Don't accept purchase of a new OS to fix bugs in Vista.